For the sake of argument....

[William]

I'm going to play the "Devil's advocate" for a moment here and ask a question:

How relevant is blade/weapon training here in the U.S.? How many people will, other then those that are put in harms way by occupation or by choice (meaning hang out in bars or areas where trouble is the norm), really need to train weapons? For the majority of people, knowing a so called "mixed" martial art that covers stand up and ground fighting would likely be enough for a large percentage of the people out there.

Why ask the question?

The other day I found an old UFC 2 tape, this was back when there were almost no rules and the fighters claimed to be from more traditional styles. Karate, Kung-Fu, TKD, Kickboxing (though some were obviously MT even though they didn't call it that), grappling, etc... It was painfully obvious that some of the stylists had never really fought outside of there own systems. Using "traditional" stances that the experienced fighters (grapplers & "kick boxers") were able to tear apart. By today's UFC standards, it's almost laughable. Thing was, they came in believing that they could prevail with little to no real experience against the types of fighters they were going against.

How does this relate?

So, that got me to thinking...How many people who train weapons have really ever been in an altercation using a blade, or dealing with a weapon wielding attacker? Again, the percentages are low. You train for all kinds of scenarios against blade wielding attackers....yet few have tried it live blade. You train for fighting with or defending against impact weapons. Yet how many will get out there and fight full contact with minimal to no gear?

The DB'ers brought it out into the open back in the 90's, but groups had been doing it well before that. A lot of people who hadn't found out quickly that a lot movements and strikes they could pull off in flow drills or at 1/4 to 1/2 power just didn't work against full force power strikes coming in. With the increased popularity of the FMA's, more groups have popped up with varied levels of real time commitment. But whether the groups are stuck in flow drills, or get into minimal gear full contact fighting, the fact remains that short of getting into a real knife/weapons fight, one could argue it's all theory. Like some of the Thai fighters say, "if you aren't getting in the ring and fighting, you're not doing Muay Thai, you're just Thai pad training". If you're not doing live blade training, or real-time full contact no gear fighting, are you really doing FMA? Or are you just doing stick and dummy blade forms?

Again, just playing the D-man's advocate in asking the question.

I've voiced my opinions on this subject on this forum a number of times before. Back when it was much more active then it is today. I'll preface this by saying that Filipino and Thai system have been my main focus since the late 80's (though, as Tuhon Gaje says, which is so very true, "It's not the years affiliated, it's the hours trained").


William

[therenegademonk]

You bring up a very valid point. It is true that blade attacks and dealing with bladed attacks are not as common here in the US as it is in the Philippines. When most people here think of fighting, they think of a brawl...two people who are unarmed going at it.

However, we need to ask ourselves: Why do we train in the use of the blade in the first place? Is it for fun? Is it because it's exotic and interesting? For me personally, I train in the use of the blade because A) It's what my ancestors studied B) It may save my life and the life of someone I love someday. We must remember that the blade is a lethal force tool. As such, it should only be used in the most dire of circumstances. Facing one angry male who grabbed your wife's ass is not time to use your blade. However, make that one male 5 angry males gawking at your wife who are now trying to pull her into a van to do God knows what to her...this is the time to use your blade. It's in times like that where use of the blade is legally and morally justified.

Sure, blade attacks are not experienced by the majority of Americans. However, the way I see it is: How many times does my fiancee/mother/sister need to get raped, kidnapped, or murdered for me to a learn a lesson? ZERO.

Will I ever get into a blade attack? Well I almost have...several times. I live most of the year in a pretty rough area. From my experience, I will honestly say that I'd rather have the knowledge of having to use the blade and carry one with that knowledge in mind instead of playing the "it will never happen to me" game and fail to protect who I love when the shit hits the fan. Will I ever have to use my blade knowledge? I haven't had to use it (although I've almost had to), and I pray I'll never have to. But, I'd rather be prepared than under prepared. Gang attacks are common in many parts of the country, because trouble rarely travels alone these days.

Now, going back to the question whether what we do is theory or not...that is also a very valid point. I cannot call myself a knife fighter because I've personally never had to stab, cut, or kill anyone. However, there are examples of cops spend 20 years on the job and never had to draw their gun once. Does that make what they know theory? While these police officers have never had to use their gun on another person, they have the knowledge passed onto them from those who have gone before them and their instructors probably had the real-world experience. Likewise, while I have never had to use my knife and stick it into another human being, I have no doubt that what I am learning is deadly and that it can save my life someday. There are only a handful of FMA instructors out there who have real-life experience with blades...and these are the guys I tend to seek out to study from, not because I'm a wannabe-Rambo or anything...but because my personal safety has been encroached upon several times and I don't want to take the risk of having someone I love harmed just because I told myself, "Nah, itll never happen to me."

God Bless,
Mike

[bjjp]

well put it like this if im in a bar and 10 guys want to beat my ass,i wont win but if i got a stick/or my kali stick which i take almost every where with methen you could clear the bar.

[William]

You bring up a very valid point. It is true that blade attacks and dealing with bladed attacks are not as common here in the US as it is in the Philippines. When most people here think of fighting, they think of a brawl...two people who are unarmed going at it.

However, we need to ask ourselves: Why do we train in the use of the blade in the first place? Is it for fun? Is it because it's exotic and interesting? For me personally, I train in the use of the blade because A) It's what my ancestors studied B) It may save my life and the life of someone I love someday. We must remember that the blade is a lethal force tool. As such, it should only be used in the most dire of circumstances. Facing one angry male who grabbed your wife's ass is not time to use your blade. However, make that one male 5 angry males gawking at your wife who are now trying to pull her into a van to do God knows what to her...this is the time to use your blade. It's in times like that where use of the blade is legally and morally justified.

Sure, blade attacks are not experienced by the majority of Americans. However, the way I see it is: How many times does my fiancee/mother/sister need to get raped, kidnapped, or murdered for me to a learn a lesson? ZERO.

Will I ever get into a blade attack? Well I almost have...several times. I live most of the year in a pretty rough area. From my experience, I will honestly say that I'd rather have the knowledge of having to use the blade and carry one with that knowledge in mind instead of playing the "it will never happen to me" game and fail to protect who I love when the shit hits the fan. Will I ever have to use my blade knowledge? I haven't had to use it (although I've almost had to), and I pray I'll never have to. But, I'd rather be prepared than under prepared. Gang attacks are common in many parts of the country, because trouble rarely travels alone these days.

Now, going back to the question whether what we do is theory or not...that is also a very valid point. I cannot call myself a knife fighter because I've personally never had to stab, cut, or kill anyone. However, there are examples of cops spend 20 years on the job and never had to draw their gun once. Does that make what they know theory? While these police officers have never had to use their gun on another person, they have the knowledge passed onto them from those who have gone before them and their instructors probably had the real-world experience. Likewise, while I have never had to use my knife and stick it into another human being, I have no doubt that what I am learning is deadly and that it can save my life someday. There are only a handful of FMA instructors out there who have real-life experience with blades...and these are the guys I tend to seek out to study from, not because I'm a wannabe-Rambo or anything...but because my personal safety has been encroached upon several times and I don't want to take the risk of having someone I love harmed just because I told myself, "Nah, itll never happen to me."

God Bless,
Mike

Great reply,

I too live by the "I'd rather know it and not need it, then need it and not know it" way of thought. Also, as you point out, here in America, the percentage is very low that you'll be involved in a bladed attack. The percentage is also very low that you'll be attacked by a shark or struck by lightning. But, don't try talking those percentages to they fisherman whose boat just sunk and he's swimming in a chum slick. Or to the guy caught above the tree line while hiking with a thunder boomer overhead. If it happens, it happens. Point being, we have to train as much and as realistically as possible to improve our percentages of coming out on top....be it a bladed, impact weapon, or open hand encounter. Nothing is certain

Like you, I've never had to stab, cut or kill someone. But I've had two incidents where I've had blades pulled on me. I've had a number of incidents involving impact weapons (out side of full contact minimal gear fighting), and quite a few open hand encounters. I will add that this was during my partying days where you tend to put yourself into dangerous situations. Since I quit partying, I've had zero encounters outside of mutual combat. But I've been close to a number of incidents since that could have become ugly very quick. Because of that and experiences in my past, I tend to be weapon oriented. When the chit hit the fan, I would use whatever I had at hand to end the encounter as quickly and expediently as possible. This is one of the things that drew me to the FMA's. Even though I don't live in that world any more, I still like to hone my skills just in case. Beyond that, I do it because I have a family, I love it, and it's a great stress reliever.

as far as real life vs theory, consider the Military: How many people go into the service with the experience of killing someone behind them? Very very few. How many people do they kill during training? None. They try to give them the knowledge, mindset, and skills, in a manner as realistic as possible, so that if the time comes, they can make the transition to pull it off in real time. I consider FMA training in the same manner for those with or with out experiences against weaponry. Not to become "Rambo" types, but to protect themselves from those types.

Until then, one could still argue that it's only theory. Any one with no training can kill with a knife, but it takes training to improve your chances of successfully stopping that person.

"I'd rather know it and not need it,
Then need it and not know it"
Me.

Best regards,
William

[MasterKaliSilat]

How about, "training with weapons makes the eye more keen to improper movements or attacks, you will have faster reflexes is mostly why, but there are other reasons that I'm sure have been addressed above. And, it's not necessarily the blade that someone may use, but often a blunt weapon of sorts or some equalizer for the novice. If you train Kali or any martial art for that matter, is the best path to empty hand use, if you hang out in discos or bars and the like.

[Paco]

Somebdy much smarter than me siad that to be prepared for war is the best way to keep the peace (or something to that effect) and let us not forget Teddy Roosevelt's (it was originally an African proverb, btw) advice to "speak softly and carry a big stick." The fact that at least two of you have encounters with a blade would lead me to question that knife attacks are not that common in this country. Where i come from, firearms (despite restrictive laws) are common (most of them illegally owned), does that mean I look forward to encountering them? No. It does make one more aware and careful when walking down the street. I agree that the attributes you develop in knife fighting are essential and translate well to empty-hand (and grappling).
I started out in FMA then did BJJ and MMA in the mid to late 90's and thought nobody with a stick or knife could lay a finger on me... Well, the FMA's have kept evolving and was amazed at what a knife could do to a grappler (check out Peyton Quinn's second book on stress-combat scenarios: there's a great picture of a guy mounted going for an americana while the guy on the bottom takes out his intestines with a knife...can you live with a broken arm? yes. can you live with your innards? no). Close combat weapons are the great equalizer. Once you start looking out for them, you'll be amazed at how many people have weapons on them- from boxcutters, yawaras. clubs, spray deterrents, stunners, blades, chains, etc.

[William]

Somebdy much smarter than me siad that to be prepared for war is the best way to keep the peace (or something to that effect) and let us not forget Teddy Roosevelt's (it was originally an African proverb, btw) advice to "speak softly and carry a big stick."

I agree (as I stated above).

The fact that at least two of you have encounters with a blade would lead me to question that knife attacks are not that common in this country.......Close combat weapons are the great equalizer. Once you start looking out for them, you'll be amazed at how many people have weapons on them- from boxcutters, yawaras. clubs, spray deterrents, stunners, blades, chains, etc.

Knife attacks are not that common compared to other types of attacks. And, not as common compared to other countries that have a more blade oriented culture. That certainly does not mean that they don't happen. Knives themselves though are not uncommon. I recently went to an air show with my family. They had advertised that they would have heightened security and would be doing checks on people going into the venue. I tried to make a mental note to leave my "tool" in the car. Of course when the day of the show came and I got through the hassle of parking and making our way to the entrance I had forgotten to leave it in the car. I always have at least one on me and don't even think about it. I use it at work and at home so it's SOP...second nature. When I see the check point I remember I still have it. They had the metal detectors out and were wanding people as they passed through. They were also checking back packs and bags. I decided it would be prudent to approach one of the MP's and explain that I had forgotten to leave my "tool" in the car. He said, "No problem, come see me when you leave and I'll give it back to you". He then took it and dropped it into a duffel bag that was on one of the tables. We went in after that and I mentally wrote off my knife thinking I'd never see it again. A few hours later we stopped at the check point on the way out. A different Sergeant was there talking with two State Police officers. I walked up to him and explained what the previous Sergeant had said. He says "sure, what's it look like?" and grabs the duffel bag and opens it up and starts rooting around inside. I could see pepper spray containers and around 30 to 40 (guessing) knives in the bottom of the bag. Mine wasn't that hard to find since it was one of the old style Endura's. They appeared to all be folders/"tactical" folders of different sizes and makes. I didn't notice any fixed blades. So out of at least a few thousand people, they pulled maybe 30 to 40 blades plus assorted other types of weapons out of the crowd. How many of those people left weapons of some sort in their car I can not answer.

I agree that the attributes you develop in knife fighting are essential and translate well to empty-hand (and grappling).

Very true, when you get used to dealing with impact weapons and blades coming at you at 90+ mph, dealing with open hands is a whole lot easier. In the Kali fencing we do, the blades move so fast that in the beginning it is really hard to keep track of them. But after a while your blade awareness and reaction times get so fast that your able to effectively counter and react to the blades. Again, this translates real well to open hand.

http://williamsmartialblog.blogspot.com/2005/02/kali-fencing-accelerated-blade.html

Best regards,
William