Jkd/kali

[thekuntawman]

Kuntawman, how many different tribes are in the Phillipines? how many different languages? The Fillipino people who came to the U.S.A. brought the term Kali with them. Did they not?

i do agree that the American boxers did learn ALOT from Fillipino boxers, ie., the low hands down, then the high hands up, this formula came from when the typical knife stance was stationed low, then it got transversed to hands up. this history could be seen from early boxer pictures. Ali was even known to look up to a Fillipino boxer,-can not remember his name.

furthermore Kuntawman why so much anger? if we are wrong and you are right then so what. if you can not stand the way the american people do things, then why interact? also please enlighten on where Dumog, and Kino Mua Thai came from,- not everyone is a liar-.

3 Salutes

1. The Fillipino people who came to the U.S.A. brought the term Kali with them. Did they not? they did not. they brought defondo/bahala na ESKRIMA, de cuerdas ESKRIMA and HILOT, serrada ESKRIMA, etc. the name "kali" probably came with one of them, maybe they even called their art KALI later, but it did not start that way. please dont try to fool me with the languages and tribes thing, and all the words with the letters kali- in it. i'm older now, and we have seen the truth on those things already. its time to drop the santa claus fairytale and move on.

2. boxers did NOT learn the slip, bob and weave (or even how to hold the hands) from filipinos. only somebody who does not know much about boxing would believe that. boxing did evolve, but it was with the times and the rules, not a filipino (i would be proud if it was true, but we have enough to be proud about instead of having to make up stories to feel good.) next they are going to try and say bruce lee was a great boxer!

3. no, i'm not angry. actually i am happy to get all this attention. see when a person is insulting you, the angrier you get, the better they feel. if you just go and kick his ass, YOU will feel better. but these are things i want to hear people talk about, what the philippine fighting arts is really about. not all those drills, but the real stratgies and techniques. people pretty much ignore balintawak, lightning scientific arnis, bakbakan, doce pares, etc. unless they are talking about a video tape or one day seminar. the only ones who appreciate them are the real martial artists who study the arts in a school full time. the rest of the MA community will ignore them because those masters will not certify you in a few seminars. all my compadres from those arts will tell you how many guys came in off the street after years of seminar and dvds, and they still cant fight. they can also tell you how many people pass them by, because they are not famous in the magazines and the internet. but those are real FMA so, i am like the wolf calling out the lion so people will see that filipino FMA is where its at, not "10 easy steps" seminar martial arts.

so to answer your question, why interact? because people need to hear it. the "shut up and leave"/love it or leave it/go back if you dont like it attitude wont work on me. this IS america right? so an american doesnt like america, he changes it using democracy. a filipino dont like it, then go home? i dont think so. i interact with FMA people because i want them to hear what i have to say. the moderators can lock me out if they want (just like moromoro, and someother people) but they dont because they know i have a true things i am saying. and like i always say, my opinion of kali/jeet kune do could change with just one person....

[thekuntawman]

by the way, roz, vince please dont take offense.

also, jkd/kali community dont take offense too. see in the philippines if you have soft feelings it tells the community there you are weak. there will always be somebody who will say you are no good, and i'm better in the FMA. when that doesnt happen, then either they think your nothing, or you will get soft from never having to confront with your art.

if you know the FMA, you will know what to do.

[roz]

no offense taken Kuntawman

i do believe you are wrong with the early-present boxing stance. but no problem, to each his own.

no trap to be taken, just curious on how many different language or tribes in the PI? if you and i do not know than i guess google -right-?

as for all the western comments- well i think enough has taken place, if you live in America, than consider yourself an American, be proud of this fact + your heritage.

please understand alot of videos on the market are for BEGGINERS, they also help create a FOUNDATION, for which many people adore to go back and look at and also grab another something. this is a whole lot better than swinging a stick or slashing away w/knife with no disipline, would you not agree?

so what may be crap to you since you are accordingly way above this playing field, is just a stepping stone for futures.

trying to force others to walk in a certain room, when they like one and one particular room only, will only force them to stay away, from the advice given to them

3 Salutes

[roz]

oh i forgot one, i do not believe in Santa Clause nor the easter bunny, just my LORD JESUS CHRIST

thank you for the interaction

3 Salutes

[McDojoJKD]

Brandon Vera trains MMA he has a brown belt under lloyd irvin but what fight did you see of brandon vera where he used bjj? LOL can you say kicks, elbows and knockouts. so stop it with the bjj hype, i do bjj but come on its a SPORT!!!!!!!!!!!

[Garland]

I believe it is unfair to make such a large sweeping comment about an art based upon two videos a student of your presented to you. Moreover, it is even more erroneous to drag the art through the mud, so to speak, on a public forum WITHOUT the video clips to post so the people from that art can testify if that is an accurate representation of their art.

Let's see the video clips. post them up on youtube, putfile...whatever...just find them and present them to the community here so we can make judgements or defenses.

[Black Grass]

by the way, roz, vince please dont take offense.

also, jkd/kali community dont take offense too. see in the philippines if you have soft feelings it tells the community there you are weak. there will always be somebody who will say you are no good, and i'm better in the FMA. when that doesnt happen, then either they think your nothing, or you will get soft from never having to confront with your art.

if you know the FMA, you will know what to do.

Kuntawman,

No offence. just don't agree with all your points. I do agree that many JKD guys can't fight , but I find that true for almost all arts arts Karate, Tae Kwan Do, Boxing, Kung Fu and yes FMA. (Now I am talking about instructor level just to be clear).

You are right though, many JKD schools do just drill and drill, and never spar however not all of them. I have trained @ 3 JKD schools in the US, Canada, and UK, and the US one was the only one that didn't spar.

And as for drills, they do use them in the Philippines. The examples you pointed, Balintiwak and Doce Pares do use those drills or something similar.

I haven't seen the Ron Balicki videos so I won't comment. I have the Dan Inosanto video you speak of (the blond is his wife, Paula ) and I will have to disagree with you and say the techniques are sound. I have used some of them in different sparring enviroments. (Since I don't know the exact jab cross technique as there are several on the video, I am speaking in generalities). Are they successful all the time against every opponent, no but then again nothing ever is.
As for Brandon Vera, I just use him as an example as the only pinoy I know fighting in the international scene, (and was not hyping BJJ, McDojo). But you are right Kuntawman I kind of went of topic with this, sorry.

Vince
aka Black Grass
Bakbakan International
Kali Ilustrisimo USA
JKD Family Canada

[Sun_Helmet]

2. boxers did NOT learn the slip, bob and weave (or even how to hold the hands) from filipinos. only somebody who does not know much about boxing would believe that. boxing did evolve, but it was with the times and the rules, not a filipino...

I agree that Western boxers probably did not learn these techniques from Filipinos. However, if you watch fights from early boxing film reels of Filipinos versus Western fighters, there is a distinct difference in flavor.

Now this is not to say other fighters moved this way based on their country of origin, but suffice to say the footage does show an English/Western fighter versus a Filipino in the early era of Boxing as sport we know today.

1923 World Flyweight Championship
Pancho Villa - Filipino versus Jimmy Wilde (World Champ)

What I saw here is that Wilde would use his hands to try and deflect blows but was rather unsuccessful due to Villa's agility. Villa would launch himself with power shots that went right through some of his defenses.
In turn the Filipino, Villa would 'absorb' Wilde's punches in a semi crouch turtle guard that looked like Ken Norton's peek a boo style. This nullified a lot of Wilde's punches and Wilde kept delivering them at the same spots.
This guard is different from Wilde's which was the lower lead left, a bit out from the hips variety that another English fighter uses in the next fight I saw which was filmed a decade later.

So Villa's (Filipino) arms were tucked close together and Wilde's were held out.

Now, I don't know if it is Villa's empty hand experience coming into play, but he does deliver 'illegal' type blows in this match which are backhands after his right hook. It just flows right back after his hook and thumps Wilde a few times. So it's a half beat shot. Wilde even complains to the ref and shows him what Villa is doing. Villa does it pretty fast and tight on few occasions.

Villa won the fight.

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World Flyweight Championship 1937
Small Montana (aka Benjamin Gan, he's the Pinoy) versus Benny Lynch
If ever Filipino 'footwork' may have influenced Ali this is a good evidence of it.

Gan has a smooth subtle rhythmic bounce to his timing which is very reminiscent of Ali. His jab, especially as he slides away looks much like Ali's. Jab and move.

Guards:
The Westerner, Lynch would hold his lead left straighter, farther from his hips similar to Wilde's above. Like some sabre fencers.

The Filipino Gan's left lead is tucked ala Ali's along his side.
Surprisingly, Gan even does a slight 'ali' shuffle as he zones out of the punches.

Lynch would come in with a nice lunging left then pop back on his feet. His bounce was after the engagement...very different- *like a fencer getting out of the way after a lunge and recovering from the movement. He establsihes this more as the fight wore on. Otherwise Lynch was flatter of foot.

Gan would be bouncing prior to striking ala Ali. Then slide back and bounce away. The bounce was more a timing gauge as it set up his shots rather than recover.
Decision goes to Lynch. Gan looks like he abandoned his earlier smooth style and stood flatter- perhaps fatigue set in. No one looked badly hurt in the fight.

--------
One detail really stood out- the way the boxers acted on the ring. They would shake hands prior to the bout as they entered the ring as if to meet for tea or something.

Another observation is that if the Filipinos used modified blade techniques from where they came from, it is also quite evident that Westerners used certain principles of their fencing culture in boxing as well.

The Westerners appear to have gotten the way they hold their hands from European style fencing. Somewhat extended and used to deflect and parry. Like they had a long weapon.

The Filipinos had a crouching "hidden" knife, or they had long range quickdraw from the hip... both are practical and oft used FMA knife postures.

Someone has to show me footage of Europeans fighting in the same vein as the Filipinos during those eras. Otherwise, there might be SOME correlation to Americans style boxing and Filipinos. There might also be something about Filipinos absorbing something from other boxers as well, like the black boxers of that era. It could just be as simple as the styles of tribal blade methods contains similarities in contrast to the way the sport fencing had influenced the Europeans by that time period.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

[Garland]

damn...those were the days. didn't pancho villa die from an infection caused by a broken tooth?

[thekuntawman]

I believe it is unfair to make such a large sweeping comment about an art based upon two videos a student of your presented to you. Moreover, it is even more erroneous to drag the art through the mud, so to speak, on a public forum WITHOUT the video clips to post so the people from that art can testify if that is an accurate representation of their art.

Let's see the video clips. post them up on youtube, putfile...whatever...just find them and present them to the community here so we can make judgements or defenses.

you know, i have always had the opinion that there is good martial arts fighters in all styles, i even defend tae kwon do guys when people talk against them. but my opinion in this took me 20 years to come to this conclusion, and i am talking about everyone i know who does JKD/Kali and the videoes i've seen. and i agree with you, its not fair that i say that. but it is still my opinion, and sometimes i want to be polite, and sometimes things got to be said. it is not the practioners fault, they are studying what they are taught, i am blaming the FILIPINO at the top, who created the system of study that messes them up.

there are styles/schools/teachers that do not deserve respect (GM inosanto deserves respect, but not so much respect i will not spead the truth), like sho shu (www.mooreschinesemartialarts.com) and krav maga, and i cant really think of some other ones. when a teacher is leading his student down the wrong path somebody needs to say something. kind of like how the famous bruce lee tried to wake up the martial arts community with his "liberate yourselves from classic martial arts". people are not going to like it, but it needs to be said.

now, when i say jeet kune do, i am not talking about the lamar davis/jesse glover group. i believe they are more pure to the tradition of the FIGHTING arts (whether its to bruce lee, i dont know), but i believe they are more into training instead of collecting. the jkdc people are collecting techniques, and there is too many of them teching without real skill. i read somebody else say, theire goal is to certify more people, sell shirts and videos. then when it comes time for martial arts, they show up at your school with a gym bag and focus mitts, but no sparring gear (i know you're reading these words, you know who you are). like everytime, no willingness to put your money where your mouth is.

see lately, the collecting is bjj, so the seminar bunch will hide behind bjj like it is a title, like phd, master, or something. i am starting to believe bjj will be the next jkd/kali, just like krav maga, tai chi ("as little as 4 weeks!") and muay thai. you use to be able to tell if a guy could fight just by hearing the style he did, or who his teacher is. some people are true to tradition, then some SELL.

when was the last time you met a kyokushinkai guy who was NOT a tough-as nails bastard? i have met tai chi people who could fight, combat aikido who are tough as any kickboxer, and on the other hand i met silat practioners, bjj guys and muay thai guys who were pussy. what's happening here? seminars. and it is the #1 way jkd/kali is taught, and that is the reason for my post. it is shameful to me as a FMA person, it should be shameful to any bruce lee student as a JKD person.

i did the math on a JKD "expert", i cant remember the name sorry, who talks with no respect, "bruce liked this, bruce was like that, blah blah blah". i did the math, when bruce lee died, the guy was 16! and they say in the last two years he did not teach! shameful.

everybody i would like to chat with you, but it is ramadan, and i will be on the computer very little. see you guys in a month.

again, i do not want to hurt any feelings, i am pointing out something that people needed to hear. thank you.

[Garland]

It sounds like you've had a particularily bad exposure to JKD-Kali. I would like to say, however, that my experience was quite different, and it was more true to fighting than "collecting", as we ran a dog brothers (yeah, ok, a bit more padding then they use, but still...) type sparring session at least one day a week.

[Paco]

Wow, thanks for the boxing info. Rafael! Garland, I think that the video that kuntawman is referring to is Guro Dan's first set of videos on the Filipino Martial Arts. He was demostrating with his wife Paula (who is blond) and with Jeff Imada. I wouldn't necessarily agree that they are crap. I think that they were the first tapes to come out on FMA, and back in the day, they were the shiznit. That doesn't mean JKD Kali is crap. Guro Dan, like most if not all JKD people has kept evolving since then. I visited kuntawman's website and I saw no videos or pics. I would suggest that he post something so to that effect so that we may make the call.

[Sun_Helmet]

Wow, thanks for the boxing info. Rafael!

Glad to be of assistance.

--Rafael--

[Sun_Helmet]

damn...those were the days. didn't pancho villa die from an infection caused by a broken tooth?

Yes, Villa died of Ludwig's angina from an ulcerated tooth. He complicated it by fighting while suffering from the infection, then getting surgery and not allowing it to heal appropriately.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali