SAYOC KALI where Pekiti Tersia gets it's knife skill

[knuckledragger]

TKOU: Thank you for recognizing that I am indeed,The Great Grandmaster of the Universe and All Fighting arts. You now study under me for $300.00/hr (or host seminars where I am guarenteed $2,000 a day plus expenses)for the next 12 years mastering 237 drills that you will never be able to use in real time no matter how good the Tuton (2 ton ha ha) makes it look on the mat. I shall refrain from using the phrase"we kiss Tuhons ass" with the more eloquent and appropriate, "you guys have a latent homosexual attatchment towrds this person."
Mike JKD : I dont feel uncertain about my training. I just think the Sayoc system is overcomplicated and drill oriented (no matter how dynamic it looks)so that you spend years learning drills that are impractical, but you have a cornball title like ,"Senior Master Bladesmen 3rd level" Where are all the other secret family systems? This sounds like the crap kung -fool teachers used to lure dopes in the 70's.I think this guy has some FMA training,and devloped the knife only stuff as his own angle to make big bucks. Most of you dopes eat it up. you are all gonna rush to get certified so you can say " and I am training in sayoc kali."JKD people dont care about fighting and training as much as they do collecting certifications from Dan Inosanto and all the others ( you know all the names,dont 'cha?) And this stuff is the new hot thing . harley , you are indeed a class act. I will endeavor to bring my posts up to your levelof quality. Oh ,TKOU what is a "descriptor" I cant find the word in my multi volume Oxford english dictionary. It cant be a misspelling because who would spell a word wrong when the good Mr mousel has given us a spell check.

[Airyu]

More Sayoc info.

Hello again,

I hope I can clarify a few points.
1) Private training with Tuhon Sayoc is expensive, but how many of you take private lessons with the head of a system? Most of the Gracie family charge $100 - 200/ hr for such a lesson. This is not the cost of training in a group/class setting, authorized Instructors run schools and teach just like any other organization.
2) Seminar fees seem expensive, I have hosted Tuhon Sayoc twice already. To host many other notable martial artists it runs between $1000 - $3000(ie D. Inosanto, Pak Suwanda(great loss for the world) etc.) for the seminar, plus expenses. Each time the seminar was great, and I was allowed to film the seminar for my training later. I was also allowed to do this when I went for a private seesion at Tuhon's home.
3) When you look back at your training in any system, list all the drills, kata's, forms, self defense technique series etc, then see if what is listed on the site is a lot of material. It is only the surface!
Before you judge anything, please take a lesson or attend a seminar, and speak with Tuhon or authorized Instructors. I am sure you will see things differently.
All the best
Train Hard, it is the Way!
Steve

[gymrat]

I have been following this post for a while. Could someone explain what makes Sayock better than other kali systems? Does it help you spar better? To be honest, after going to the website, it seems to be a super complicated system to me. I come from a boxing and wrestling background and I know for a fact that these arts work because they are simple. Sayock doesn't seem to possess this quality given what I have read. Maybe it is all the technical terminology (hopefully this sounds more respectful than the way knuckledragger put it) that confuses me. Are people who are trained in the system able to pull its combinations and principals off during full speed sparring? Can anyone give me some examples? Thanks in advance.

[Groin Grab]

The Sayoc web site said that group training is 300 dollars per person per hour. Even training in a group wouldn't be any less expensive. The only other option is to travel around the country and follow the seminars which by the time you add on all the travel expensise will cost just as much as or more than private training. I am sorry to say that I am starting to feel more like knuckledragger why is this guy worth so much money? Seriously only rich people will ever be able to train with him but I guess from a buisness stand point it would be best to have a bunch of rich guys as your directly certified instructors.

[Airyu]

Clarifing some issues

Hello Again everyone,
I hope this will clear up some issues.
#1) The fees listed on the Sayoc kali website are for personal instruction from Tuhon Sayoc. This is not regular class instruction at any of the Sayoc kali training groups. In fact, Tuhon also surprises some of those groups and stops by for training. So again the cost of private instruction for you or a group is listed on the website.
#2) "Does it work in sparring, full contact" Personally I spar full contact with stick and blade related material alot, and have done so for over 10 years(in various kali arts), as well as full contact empty hands for over 20 years, so I was concerned that the material would work in a real situation. But I have also used Sayoc Kali material in our blade sparring to great effect. Also, there are others more qualified to speak on this end, and you can contact them through the Sayoc website.

I hope this helps
Train Hard
Steve

[TKOU]

Dear KD,
I guess your command of spelling exceeds my own meager comprehension of the English language so I tip my hat to you sir!
I do believe that you missed the point of my post and were merely hung up on defending your myopic perspective of the Kali world as you know it. Here is my take on the Sayoc Kali "realistic training vs. difficult drill matrix" debate. I have attended only one Sayoc seminar and already have pulled of several of the principles that Tuhon shared with us in Texas. I believe that if I, a total rank amatuer can pull this stuff of against my seniors during full speed knife sparring that it is worth while for me to study. You may choose not to train with Tuhon and that is fine with me. I just feel that your attack against my instructors is both childish and unwarranted. However rather than being a man and refraining from name calling and labeling you choose to use the "latent homosexual" reference. You are the worst kind of keyboard warrior and lack both fortitude and class. I am sure that if I were to insult or degrade those who you hold in esteem you would be quick to leap to thier defense. It is my experience that the flaws we readily attack in others are those we are most incomfortable with in ourselves. I would encourage you to take pause for a moment and consider how cross-training came to the masses? Was it some doing of your own or did a man named Bruce have something to do with it. Each and every art has it's certificate chasers, belt and title hoarders. JKD is not immune from such people either, however you speak out of turn when saying that Harley and Mike are two such people. These two have never lauded over me the fact that they are "higher ranked" and can only to be addressed as "HIgh Holyniess" or some such nonsense. I came from a system that was just such an organization. A system built on smoke and mirrors, I feel capable of distinguishing the difference between the two "worlds". You are an inconsequential blip on the radar screen of life KD because you subscribe to only what you can see, touch, and taste in your own backyard. Never venturing beyond your self imposed bounderies to investigate the world on your own. I am sorry for you; you will never know true happiness for fear of how others may see you. Stay safe in your comfort zone KD, be scared to seek truth in life, resort to infantile attacks on others who would share experiences and learnings from outside your box.

[gymrat]

I was hoping someone could give me some SPECIFIC examples of Saiyock techniques that they have used rather than just saying "I can do the techniques." I once was challenged by a kungfu guy who thought boxing sucked and he couldn't make any of his kingfu techniques work and all I used was a jab and right hand.

All the talk about using knives that have been stuck in your opponent's body as handles is interesting and reminds me of stuff in kung fu movies but what does sayock have that allows you to get that close, PAST YOUR OPPONENT'S KNIFE, that is different than other Kali systems? I have seen the tapes by Paul Vonak and his stuff is simple and realistic in my opinion. Why is sayock kali better? It is easy to punch a heavy bag because it doesn't hit back and it doesn't move away. I found out the hard way in the ring that people don't let you punch them in the nose and they punch back-somehow you have to get in on them and I don't think this principle would disappear in a knife fight.

I am honest and am just seeking some answers to my questions-no disrespect intended.

[Call Me Al]

Gymrat,

The main idea to close the distance to get into knife range is to use projectile weapons to distract or injury your opponent. Once inside the range, you attack the vital targets. The opposite hand blocks, defends responds to any defensive counters or attacks while you concentrate of attacking the vital targets of the templates. You are trying to create a defense by having a superior offense. While the defender is trying to respond to your offense you try to continue to attack vital areas.

Another interesting aspect of the training is they have a form of Panantukan (FMA boxing) which they deploy the knives in a boxing structure, jabbing, hooking, uppercut...I have never personally seen this Sayoc structure but I have heard it is very interesting.

Anyone correct any mistakes.

Gymrat are you from t he Topeka Area?

[gymrat]

Al, thanks for responding, hopefully more people will weigh in.

The idea of throwing knives to "cover me i'm going in" idea seems good in concept. If you have the skill and accuracy to injure with a thrown knife it seems kind of silly to get "into knife range" as you say-almost suicidal. I can't think of a GOOD reason to do this. On paper it sounds really cool though. How practical is this at close range, say 7 feat and closer? What do you do then? My paul Vonak point is still there-what else does Sayock have to help you get closer to use the knife? Knife fighting is a close range thing.

Also, If you have the time to initiate a fencing/karate type sparring situation, how legally defensible is it to throw knives so you can get closer and stick a knife in a guy, use that knife as a handle, steer him around and stick him again? I would think that any court of law would string you up for not leaving the scene. Yeah, you could throw the knives to cover your escape, but the other stuff sounds like ninja stuff to me.

Also, how would a cop look at someone carrying more than one knife, especially fighting type knives? I have a friend who is a cop who has kept more than one knife on occasion-he would have to have an auction if he pulled over a sayock guy! lol.

Now that I think about it, how would a jury look at a guy who maybe was within his self-defense rights but carried five knives and used them to get the job done! If I was a juror I would think this guy egged the fight on to try out his skill!

Al, I am in Manhattan during the week but come from Grandview (and am there usually on the weekends). Let me know your thoughts.

[gymrat]

"Once inside the range, you attack the vital targets. The opposite hand blocks, defends responds to any defensive counters or attacks while you concentrate of attacking the vital targets of the templates."

This sounds like a fancy way of saying "i punch him in the liver, he drops his hands (opens up a shot to the chin) then I hook and cross to the head". This is just basic boxing principles, nothing new here. I could call this the "liver, chin" template #1 for boxing. lol

I am beginning to think that Sayock just uses better packaging or marketing to sell their art.

[Harley]

Hello Guys,
I'm sorry i haven't posted in a few days, i've had students from out of town that took all my time. Man, there's alot of good questions, and some not so good comments, going on out there.
As we have discussed before, Sayoc students are not limited to carrying so many knives, there are many subsititues that work just fine.
as for Tuhon's fees, yes they are expensive, but as pointed out, they are the going rate for seminar instructors.
What does Sayoc have that is better than Vunak? Well, vu is a student of Guro Inosanto, Guro Inosanto is now a student of Tuhon Sayoc, to quote Guro Inosanto "Sayoc kali simply has stuff our system dosen't, on a scale from one to ten i'd rate it a ten".
Projectiles are a form of entry, and are very effective. and you don't have to throw one at a time!
as for specifics, well it's kinda hard to explain a tech, on the web ya know? i really wish i could, i mean, i'm sold on it and would love to share more but this is a limited forum ( meaning how to express it ).
I know the stuff on the Sayoc site seems like pretty confusing and dry reading, trust me, it's not that way in real life, lol.
Can you really pull them off? yes, almost everything they do is in "real time", that's one of Tuhon's main rules, it has to be done in real time.
some people don't just let you hit them, no kidding? lol. we don't expect them to, we don't want them to, that would take all the fun out of it! that's the point isn't it, to have fun.
I'm not saying that all other stuff out there is useless by any means. My point in this post was to address the history behind the connection to Pekiti Tersia and Sayoc kali, not degrade any one else's system or belittle anyone else's skill. I am not trying to convince anyone else to train with Tuhon Sayoc or study his system, quite frankly the fewer people who know this system the better for me!lol. As for being rich to train in the sayoc system, i teach Sayoc at my school for free. i don't charge a dime for the class. students may attend a seminar but are not forced to.
the drills only seem complicated when first introduced, like sumbrada seems hard when first introduced, but the progression is effective and easy to learn. i have an eight year old kid and a eleven year old in my sayoc class, if they can learn it,well surely you big mean martial artist can.
I know i missed alot of posts, sorry, but i have tried to address a few things here. Again, i'm not trying to convince anyone to believe what i'm saying,i'm just very excited about the system and the results i get with it and thought i would share it with you guys. You seem to have serious questions, concerns and seem like a solid group of dedicated martial artists, so i thought the comments, tips, and suggestions might be appreciated.
Harley

[Groin Grab]

Gymrat has some good points. In Hock Hockems encyclopedia of knife fighting volume II he says "why throw a way a perfectly good knife," he discourages knife throwing." Hock feels that throwing a knife at some one in a one on one situation only gives the opponent an opportunity to have two knives. Even if your knife sticks the guy he's not going to be dead unless you get a sweet throat shot. Other wise he's still going to come for you and probably be really pissed. Hock encourages throwing stuff at your opponent to close the distance or get a way but not knives. I throw knives as a hobby and enjoy it a great deal. I usually carry a folder on me as well as three or four sometimes five throwing knives depending on which ones I decide to take with me because I think throwing a knife could be useful if you find your self in a situation of fighting many armed attackers like a gang for example. In this case I may throw a knife into one guy. Once it goes in that would hopefully distract the others to allow me to make a run for it or take another guy out. The problem with throwing knives is I'm pretty accurate when I'm standing in front of my tree that I throw at and have the time to aline my body properly and prepare for my throw how ever in a real combat situation the knife thrower doesn't have time to prepare him self and make the nescarry adjustments to accurately hit his target. Often you may have to throw from an acward position or less than ideal angle. In order to throw accurately you have to kind of reach or your target in to get the proper snap on your wrist that makes the knife spin right it if you don't reach full extension it's harder to pull off your shots every time this could easly get messed up if a bunch of guys are pressing forward and changing the distance of your target. I work my foot shots a lot because their easy to warm up with and I can shoot those off really fast and from a five foot range with the highest percentage of accuracy. It would be cool to pin some guys foot in the ground with the throwing knife then when he looks down at his impaled foot go for the throat with the folder while checking his weapon hand. It's probably not very possible but it would be cool. If you draw your knife first you and your only five feet away I would probably go for the kill shot and not the foot. Plus the foot is a small target and can easly move out of the way the chest is the best target because it's the largest and most difficult for your opponent to move. What does every one else think?

[Groin Grab]

I didn't see Harley post when I posted mine. Thanks for the post I feel I have a little better understanding of the Sayoc system and that's very commendable that you are willing to teach for free.

[Harley]

Hey great post!
first let me say that i personally do not like Hock on a personal level and think even less of his skill.
second, you have some great ideas on training the throws, but don't limit yourself, throw several at a time, ya increase your odds! and really all you are looking to do when throwing the blade is distact him for a secondwhile you enter or escape. not kill him. once he is thinking about all the stuff i just threw at him he's now not thinking of cutting me when i enter.
Your on the right track, just open up a little wider and you will find some more oppourtunities to employ this stratagy.
harley

[Airyu]

More Sayoc info

Hello Again,

The information posted on the Sayoc Kali site, is only just that, information. It helps a new student have a reference to go to, when they forget a drill or a name of a principle or technique. It isn't supposed to be an end all look at what Sayoc Kali has to offer or is all about. That I can assure you is far from the case. In our 2nd seminar we spent at least 20 mins in all out sparring with our training blades. The defender had no blades and had to rely on empty hand passing and cross checking, grabbing the weapon hand and disabling the attacker. All at real time speed, (No deaths recorded here, just alot of bruises!) As for our training group, we have specifically used direct attacks to "template targets" vs the incoming limb destruction.(not saying that we will not take the destruction but were focusing on another aspect in this last session) When you hit a target hard you will get a nice response which allows even more options to happen. In sparring(and it is just sparring) too many of us have a "dueling mentality" meaning that because we want to win in points, or beat our opponent in the match, we quickly loose sight that when stuck or cut with a real blade there is a clear response to the pain and blood. We practice sparring to work on our attribute development, not as a method to duel with a real opponent. (This theory is quite the same for empty hand skills.)
As for closing the gap, throwing an object, blade, pen, coins etc, quickly allows one to start moving in, but is only one method. Most violent encounters start at a very close distance. Usually at arms length. Surviving that initial attack(especially in a case of being surprised like a mugging etc) will be determined upon your ability to remove yourself from the path of an incoming blade in some fashion, and if you are carrying a weapon the deployment of that weapon.(Handgun, blade, even empty hand) Those scenarios have to be played out at slow speed and then in real time during your training. The drills are a tool that allow you many options in which to do this. Basic cutting and countering skills are taught as well as carry methods, first aid etc., are all a part of the skills that are taught in the Sayoc Kali method.
As for what makes it different from other forms of Filipino martial arts. The number one difference is that it is a blade art. Not a stick art converted into a blade system. Many skills of the stick are not transferable to the blade, many are. I have seen and practiced many Filipino arts(Doce Pares, Pekiti Tirsia, Dekiti Tirsia, Inosanto method, Modern Arnis etc) and although they are all very good, most try to transfer the stick methods to the knife. After a couple of sessions with Sayoc Kali this was clearly pointed out to me in terms of "targeting". Vital templates are blade determined not stick determined. A smack with the stick on the thigh hurts like hell and might buckle my leg, but the same cut on the thigh will probably open the femoral artery and criticall wound an assailant. This is one example but I hope it helps.
This discussion has taken a turn for the worst a little while ago and I hope it continues on a more positive note on the merits of both the Sayoc Kali method as well as other FMA's.
Train HArd
Steve