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Hello Lorenzo... good posts - have we met?
--Rafael--
--Rafael--
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hello,
it is possible. glad you liked the posts. admittedly an old thread, but have seen this issue pop up time and again. for some reason, a lot of people think that the sayoc system advocates carrying a dozen or more blades at once.
not sure how this idea gained momentum, but since it comes up, figured it might benefit others who trip across this thread (like lsd did!!) to understand this piece of equipment (harness).
thanks.Comment
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Hello Lorenzo,
Are you actually training in Sayoc Kali somewhere?
Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.Comment
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Sayoc Kali
Hello to all,
Forgive me for the intrusion but since several of you have posted comments relating to Sayoc Kali, I have one to post as well. I believe Sayoc Kali is a beautiful, sleek, yet deadly and highly dangerous art given it taught to the wrong individual as is with all FMA. But I have a problem with the organization itself. A while back I went to join a Sayoc Kali Training group here in NYC called Tactical Studies ran by some guy named James Berkley and it was the worst experience ever!!!!!!!!! I was charged $100 per session (and I did 3 sessions so go figure) for lectures, a copy of the US Constitution (I was not and have no intentions of joining a militia), copy of NY State knife laws (which was very useful), and a book that he charged me an extra $25 for and insisted that I NEEDED it and it was the Sayoc's philosophy ($300 + $25)! This took place for about 3 sessions inwhich I'd lost $325 and never learned one single technique be it stick or knife. Later I went to the Sayoc Kali's website to make a complaint and they never contacted me or anything so like I said, I like the art but HATE the organization. It seems as if they care nothing of their organizational reputation other than that which refers to the art. The problem is, they ARE the art...it's named after the for crying out loud. I later became a private student of their so called rival Kali family: Pekiti Tersia Kali Pitbulls and I love it. They didn't charge me any outrageous fees, everyone was nice and was far from being racist (unlike the Sayoc guy who basically told me I could not learn Sayoc Kali because I am African American and the police harrass black people like hell). I have only been with the PTK people for a month now but so far it has been rewarding. And had that situation been rectified I would have joined the Sayocs. Infact, if they ever decide to retify and they do, then I will be more than willing to leave PTK and join them. But I know that is not going to happen as it has been about 5 months since I went to their training camp.
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Hello Jay09,
I am disappointed to hear that you have had such a bad experience with Sayoc Kali, but I would like to comment on a few things:
1) I do not believe James Berkley has been active in the Sayoc organization for several years now so I do not understand why you went to that individual for training. There are several other schools located in NY that are officially a part of the SKSTA and represent the highest level of quality in instruction.
2) I find it interesting that you say that you went to the website and complained. I review the public forum almost daily and have not seen your posts or you have not contacted me in regards to that experience. In many if not all of my replies to questions regarding Sayoc Kali I always comment to check the website for Autorized schools and Instriuctors in your area, plainly you did not do your research well enough to see that the individual was not an authorized Sayoc instructor.
3) Having trained in PTK and a founding member of the Pitbull organization,(I can authenticate this with my certficate from 1999 if you would like) I found the members to be as warm as any of the Sayoc members I have met and yes, I have met and trained with most all of the senior ranks including Pamana Tuhon Sayoc, and they are welcoming and warm, and have supported individuals through many issues (not always training related). So I think you are somewhat off base by your individual experiences.
4) As to a racist comment about being African American,this is so far off base from the Sayoc organization it is only a sad example of that individuals belief structure. Take a look at individuals such Manong Muhammed, and many other individuals whom are of African heritage or descent and then look at what you are telling the public here in your post. The two items do not match and are a again your experiences being expanded to take in your dislike of a decision you made to not properly investigate your teachers ties and background.
5) I am wondering why you bring up this thread that has been not replied to for a long, long time. Do you have an agenda (good or bad) for doing so?
If at anytime you would like to further discuss these matters, contact me at anytime.
Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.Comment
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Research?
Hello again,
First of all let's get this straight. I am not trying to bash your organization or downplay you folks as representatives, you have done that to yourselves.
You are claiming I didn't do my research but the fact is: THERE ARE NOT MANY SAYOC GROUPS IN NYC. Most are either located in upstate New York or somewhere in New Jersey. Examples would be: Fresh Meadows, Eastchester, Downtown Manhattan (no longer exist yet is STILL on the Sayoc website: Personal Tactics ran by Guru Andreas and you proclaim you all are doing updates and checking emails? What about removing schools that no longer exist?), and Pleasantville. There are NO Brooklyn schools, NO Manhattan schools, NO Queens schools, and NO Staten Island schools and if they are they are not mentioned on the website: sayoc.com.
Second of all, I was referred to James Berkley by a Sayoc Guru: Guru Andreas (who I had to email several times to get a response) who supposedly was out on a world tour at the time. Another group I have contacted was Neo Tribe Kali who'd informed me that they do not teach Sayoc anymore.
So have I not did my research well enough or are you just running your mouth?! But being that Tactical Studies is a training group it was listed under the training group section but it is no longer listed now so what happen, did you guys remove it? Now there is a new group located in Forest Hills (I think this group was probably there a few months ago as well, I am not sure).
Here is the email Guru Andrea sent to me:
"Hello
My school is currently suspended until I return from my around the world trip.
please consult www.sayoc.com for other schools in the area (there are several)
Guro Andreas"
Below that are the emails I have sent to sayoc@sayoc.com I have removed my name from the email and replaced it with "....." The email was sent via gmail and is titled: Training Group Complaint:
"Jun 9, 2009
Hi,
My name is..... I'd recently had an interest in learning Sayoc Kali in the NYC area but was really disappointed when I joined a training group led by James Berkley called Tactical Studies. He charged me and a friend of mines $100 for a private lesson in Sayoc on two occasions (we only attended only two privates and realized either he was a fraud or an incompetent Sayoc instructor out to take peoples money (no disrespect to the Sayoc Organization itself)). The first lesson was a 5 hr lecture on New York State laws and the United States Constitution which he spoke biasedly yet cunningly, about how the US and New York Laws are against black people. I first took this notion to be biased-suggesting that he feels young black males should not learn Kali. The second private lasted roughly 4 hr inwhich my friend and I were given two thing to work on: (1) defense against a reverse grip stab to the head and throat area and (2) spinning transition between foward and reverse grip. Once I had asked him who taught him Sayoc and his response was that he studied directly under Tuhon Chris Sayoc himself (...I don't believe this.). All in all, I lost time and money with an incompetent Sayoc Kali instructor in NYC and if this is the real Sayoc curriculum I am highly disappointed and I am not satisfied at all. I know you guys may say try another school but there aren't many schools in the NYC 5 borough area....James Berkley's training group was the only one."
Now my friend and I did attended two privates together and I attended the third private alone which had actually occured before my friend and I went the second time. He would've attended the private class with me but he was sick at the time. And I'd also sent a second email after I did not receive a response but you folks may not have received it because I do not have a copy in my sent messeges folder. Anyway, back to the matter hand...WHO DIDN'T DO THEIR RESEARCH?
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Hello Jay09
"First of all let's get this straight. I am not trying to bash your organization or downplay you folks as representatives, you have done that to yourselves. "
No, I still believe you are incorrect in this assumption as the information you keep putting out here is somewhat dated. ie: NeoKali tribe has not been affiliated with the SKSTA for several years, Guro Andreas was traveling for almost a year and was out of contact with the NY groups, the website information is updated as soon as there are changes in the organization for what ever reason necessary. So again where is the information you are saying was due diligence on your part? "Caveat Emptor" is a term you should know well from your bad experience. But still think about you took several semi private and a private class that each lasted multiple hours, and yet you did not feel that something was wrong from the get go?
"THERE ARE NOT MANY SAYOC GROUPS IN NYC. Most are either located in upstate New York"
Absolutely correct as the organization tries its best to prevent experiences like yours from occurring. If they do occur action is taken on individual and group members, immediately.
"But being that Tactical Studies is a training group it was listed under the training group section but it is no longer listed now so what happen, did you guys remove it?"
Any group or Instructor that is not currently in active training is removed as soon as possible from the website. I believe the last update was in July just after Sama Sama.
So as for due diligence, why did you continue to take lessons if you felt that you were not gaining something from the practice with that instructor? Also why didn't you post to the Sayoc Public forum your questions or concerns? If you were and active member of the SKSTA you should have had access to the members section of the website again where any grievence could have been aired, Lastly why did you resurrect a dead thread to air your issues?
I will contact PT Sayoc, Guro Andreas and dig out the issues you have faced and all of your emails if they have arrived at the web they are archived for issues that may arise at a later date.
Gumagalang
Gutro SteveComment
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Sayoc Kali
"So as for due diligence, why did you continue to take lessons...?"
I've taken ONLY 3 sessions so where are you getting this nonsense about me continuing to take classes there? And you have not changed the training groups because Tactical Studies still shows up so you have not updated anything. The info is listed below:
Tactical Studies
Tactical Studies
301 West 108 Street
New York, NY 10025
Contact: James Berkley
Phone: 212-749-1220
And still you tell me "Any group or Instructor that is not currently in active training is removed as soon as possible from the website. I believe the last update was in July just after Sama Sama."
Now I have presented my proof of my claims....where are yours?
And how much more diligent can one be when the info is listed on the same site I was told to refer to: sayoc.com?
It is not my fault that you guys have not been diligent in checking up on your training groups and making sure they are doing what they are suppose to do.
How am I as a person new to Kali or any version of FMA is suppose to know what is legit and what is not?
Afterall, the freaking group was and still is listed on your website so you tell me what's up.
This applies to anything product or service:
If something is found to be faulty it should be immediately investigated by the company that is providing the product or service.
Me...I was merely a customer who accepted information on face value from YOUR Website.
"Also why didn't you post to the Sayoc Public forum your questions or concerns?"
Why should I have to post information on a freaking public forum when I sent you people an email to be discreet about things? Isn't that what email addresses are for right?
It is NOT MY FAULT that you did not respond or bother to check the freaking emails. And you cannot use the excuse about being too busy because in that case, you should not have an email address.
Also, it really doesn't matter how I contacted you people, my duty was only to make contact and your duty is to investigate and get to the bottom of it.
Fact is, you people only care about taking people's money but nothing about the success of the organization itself and if not, then why am I placing my complaint on a freaking blog when it was first made DIRECTLY to the organization itself?
You are lucky I didn't complaint to the Better Business Beurea, very lucky indeed.
And concerning Neo Tribe, how was I suppose to know that they haven't been affiliated with Sayoc in years? Isn't that the whole purpose of contacting them? Duh!!!!!!!!!!!
Look dude, don't try to flip this around on me. I contacted your people and they never responded so who fault is that?
Now what YOU can do for me if you are who you proclaim you are is report this problem and have it resolved right? Isn't that the logical thing to do instead of telling a customer they are wrong when they are the ones spending the money?
Now, go do your job. I have already done mines.
Also note that the date on the complaint email is dated June 200"9" so the incident had taken place this summer. If you had paid attention to the proof you would not have made such a stupid comment as:
"No, I still believe you are incorrect in this assumption as the information you keep putting out here is somewhat dated. ie: NeoKali tribe has not been affiliated with the SKSTA for several years, Guro Andreas was traveling for almost a year and was out of contact with the NY groups, the website information is updated as soon as there are changes in the organization for what ever reason necessary. So again where is the information you are saying was due diligence on your part?"
I had contacted Neo Tribe prior to joining what I believed was a official Sayoc training group all because it was listed on the website: sayoc.com. And if you do not believe me then go to the website and type in "James Berkley" and watch what shows up.
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Hello Again,
Jay09 - you need to refresh your information as the information on the site is current and Tactical Studies is not listed as an official location. You have pulled historical information which again is archived on the site from April of 2008. The current listed schools follow:
Schools
Certified Schools: USA
• California: Sayoc LA
• Connecticut: RiSu Martial Arts Academy
• Florida: Filipino Combat Systems
• Maryland: Berlin Boxing Gym
• Maryland: Maharlika Martial Arts
• New Hampshire: Bujinkan Dojo
• New York: Kapatid Martial Arts
• New York: Personal Tactics
• New York: Progressive Martial Arts Academy
• New York: Westchester Martial Arts Academy
• Pennsylvania: Muhammad’s Martial Arts
• Pennsylvania: Butohan
• Texas: Warrior’s Way Martial Arts Academy
Certified Schools: World
• Canada: Active Blade Systems
• England: Sayoc Kali – Europe
• Sweden: Stockholm Blade Arts
Training Groups: USA
• Arizona: Arizona Training Group 1
• Arizona: Arizona Training Group 2
• California: Los Angeles Training Group
• Illinois: Pamana Tribal Technologies
• Massachusetts: Massachusetts Training Group
• New York: The Martial Arts Studio
• Washinton D.C & VA: NOVA Sayoc Training Group
• Washington: USMAA
Training Groups: World
• Belgium: Triple Combat
• Canada: Alberta Sayoc Kali
• France: France Training Group
• Ireland: Ireland Training Group
• Poland: Warsaw Training Group
• Russia: Sayoc Kali Training Group
Also here is a direct statement regarding the most updated list of Instructors:
Instructor List from the website:
*Instructor List Updated: July 10, 2009. Please note: If you are not listed and should be, please let us know. Also, if there is an error with your listing, please let us know. Send an email to Tess Sayoc and your listing will be corrected.
As to you taking classes you state that you took at least 3 sessions one that was approximately 4 hours long, but yet you could not tell that there was an issue?
As you decided to come out and post your grievance here on a public forum attached to a post that insinuates a rivalry with another organization, do you not think that it would have or could have been brought to the attention of the greater Sayoc organization if you did post it on the Sayoc board?
As I have said here I am already investigating your claims, true, false or in between. But I am still questioning your reasoning on coming to this forum and exploiting this very particular thread for airing these issues.
Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.Comment
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Really, if you're happy training in PTK - then more power to you.
Enjoy training under the most structured and well -meaning FMA system of all time... Pekiti Tirsia.
Have you ever visited the PTK site btw?
A Kali, Arnis, Pencak Silat, Site for Self Defense, Seminars, Videos, Newsletters of these Indonesia / Malaysia / Philippine Martial Arts
wait no that's not it:
Pekiti-Tirsia International Official Website
oh wait, that's not it either:
Pekiti-Tirsia Global Organization
There!
Let us know when you become the first OFFICIALLY recognized African American Tuhon in PTK.
Sayoc wishes you well on your journey.Comment
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Sayoc Kali
Yes, the class was almost 5 hours long and he gave a lecture about the US Government, Constitution, etc. and how they were raping the people and blah, blah, blah. I was under the impression that all of you FMA people do that in the first 2 sessions being that FMA is weapons based. But the 3rd session is what put the icing on the cake for me and it became clear then that something was wrong.
Yes, I have viewed the listed you'd presented with all of the current schools and training groups. But now I must ask, why is his name, and his group name still in the Sayoc database because Guru Andreas had referred me to him?
Concerning the whole PTK thing, what does that have to do with anything? I am not here to promote any beef between the groups for I am only there to learn what I need and nothing more. I care less for politics and dogma. I could have sworn that in my first post I said that I would leave PTK and join Sayoc if this matter was resolved. I said that didn't I? So if you feel a way about PTK whether it is the art or the organizations then speak directly to them as I have emailed your organization to complain about an ill service that was neglected and forced me to post the issue on a blog.
And I see that you still have not answered any of my questions. And I have mentioned before: if you are who you say you are then get to the bottom of this because I am not making it up. I have too much to do with my time to just sit and blog BS. Hmmmm, let me count: (1)work, (2) school, (3) family, etc. And I am sure you have a full plate too so let's just cut the crap and get to the bottom of this because the fact still remains that I got that information from the Sayoc website and he knew the truth but didn't speak on it. Like I said, he said he studied directly under Tuhon Chris and blah, blah, blah. I will now provide you with an email address to reach me
e-mail deleted)
You have 24hours to contact me at that email address. From there I will provide you with a telephone number so we can speak verbally. Hopefully from there we will both be able to get to the bottom of this. Because at the end of the day, there's a chameleon wearing your shirt Jack.Comment
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Re; Personal information...
Originally posted by jay09 View Post
You are free to use the forum as you see fit and I hope you found this site of some benefit... I feel obliged to suggest that your contact info should remain private. Please use the "private" message feature if you care to share it with individuals at your own risk.
Thanks kindly,
Your humble moderator.
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Hi, I've been training in Sayoc Kali since the first seminar held in Europe in 2003 and its been a fantastic continuing journey of (self) discovery. From the minute I seen the system I knew it was something I had never encountered before, wanted to learn as much more as I could and knew it had so much to offer. In that time I have NEVER been disappointed in anyway by the training or the people. In my initial stages of training anytime I asked questions either on the forum or from individuals I was always given complete answers to any and all questions. The same applies to anyone's posts on the public forum.
I train in other martial arts as well as Sayoc and because of my training in Sayoc, it has given me a unique and different perspective into those arts along with my own personal development as well. Along with all of this, Sayoc has given me opportunities that I would have NEVER be given otherwise including meeting and training with some great instructors, meeting terrific guest instructors and the chance to become a Sayoc Tactical Instructor which in itself provided even more opportunities.
Jay09, you were unfortunate to have taken classes that you found wasteful but you are EVEN MORE UNFORTUNATE to be missing out on the chance to train in a wonderful system that has SO MUCH to offer.Comment
yup.
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