SAYOC KALI where Pekiti Tersia gets it's knife skill

[Harley]

hello guys.
we recently had Tuhon Sayoc here for a seminar and all i can say is WOW! He really is an excellent artist with every aspect of the blade. His ability with the blade is nothing short of extrodinary.
During the weekend he covered with me his background with G.M. Leo Gaje and pekiti tersia. Tuhon Sayoc was at one point supposed to take over the P.T. system from Gaje, but turned it down to lead his family system Sayoc Kali. During his time with G.M. Gaje, people begain to study what he was demonstrating and came up with their version, thus the pekiti tersia system of knife fighting, which it is quite well known for, are modified versions of Sayoc kali. although this system is close when you first look at it, once you begin to do sayoc kali you see how much deeper sayoc kali is. If you are interested in seeing more or hearing more just let me know or check out his website.
Sayoc.com
thanks for letting me ramble.
harley

[Kevin]

Hi Harley,

I'm definitely interested in hearing more.
Can you share with us some of the training methods that really stood out as being different.

Thanks!
~Kev

[Harley]

hey guys.
sure.
for one thing they don't defang the snake. they go straight for the vital targets which are taught using "vital templates". concentrating on going straight for these vital targets using trapping as an entry, kinda like pekiti tersia knife tapping, except in most knife systems the concentration is on the empty handed guy defending the blade, in sayoc, the guy with the blade is the focus. teaching counters to both natural and trained responses.
with the focus on the blade wielder, not the defender, the focus becomes effective attacking, not effective defending! that's a big change in mentality.
they don't do long range "sparring" because they use projectiles to close the distance. while he's thinking about cutting your hand you start throwing projectiles at him and while he's dealing with those, you are attacking.
they have an effective method for two man teams sparring others.
all the stuff is backed by a solid medical understanding of the targets and the results your looking for. not just bleeding him out.
all the stuff has been used by someone in the family at some point in time, five generations of soldiers.
really some great stuff. some other stuff i have to ask Tuhon to talk about but really awesome stuff. very effective. anyway hope that gives you some ideas.
harley

[Danny T]

Re:where Pekiti Tirsia gets it's knife skill

Harley, I am interested as to when did Tuhon Sayoc train with G. Tuhon Gaje'? What years? And where?

Curious as to when Gaje' learned these skills from Sayoc. Have been doing Pekiti-Tirsia with several instructors under Gaje' including Tuhon McGrath who lived with Gaje' for a time and this is the first time I have heard this.

I have seen several different versions of the tapping drill
used in other systems but other than on a very basic level there was no comparision to how pekiti-tirsia uses it. And in PT the tapping drill is a basic learning tool. There is so much more. Knife tapping is like learning what a pencil is used for once you know the A,B,C's. Most as you stated, focus on the defender fighting the knife. A sort of duel or one for one attacking.
The training I have had is based upon stopping the knifer. Control the weapon hand as you take the yielder OUT!!

Danny T

https://www.progressivemaclub.homestead.com

[Call Me Al]

Harley,

When they discussed projectiles, did the Sayocs deal only with edged projectiles or did they go into to things such as coins or other objects used for distraction rather than inflicting instant harm.

I know they carry in excess of 7 knives in their custom rigs so they can use them for projectiles or draw from various positions of the hand, but in some circles of the law some view this as excessive. Did they go into any of the legal issues or did they just stick with their specific structure.

Another question I have is are the templates like set forms or are they basic sets which say these anatomical targets are best attacked in this particular structure.

[Harley]

Hello guys
let me see if i can answer the questions.
first i'm not sure what when Sayoc was training with Gaje, maybe early 70's, i do know that McGrath had not reached the level to keep up and was not allowed into the private training sessions. it was during this time that Gaje was demonstrating P.T. all over the u.s. his protege at the time (Sayoc) went with him to demonstrate the blade work. Tuhon Sayoc still holds G.M. Gaje in deep reguards and speaks very highly of him and the time he spent training with him.

As for the template question Al asked, well, keep in mind if i'm incorrect reguarding Sayoc's kali system please forgive me. but i believe the templates to be preset, at least what i've seen of them, because not only are they vital targets they are based on the relfexive reactions of the defender, then they are based on the trainied response of the defender. Templates like 3 of 9 take into consideration things like, the untrained response of a beginner once cut, the trained response of a defender, if he blocks, traps you or attempts to disarm you. the templates also have right and left hand patterns that augment each other. each one different, creating two dominant hands. very interesting stuff. as for the projectiles, they can also be used on the templates. so the same targets and motions are used for projectiles. the projectiles could be anything, coins, chopsticks or pens. as for the number of knives carried. they have several options for this consideration but i will say that if you are creative you can carry as many projectiles and weapons as you want, i now, thanks to Tuhon Sayoc carry twenty projectiles and several blades, all are legal enough to carry on an airplane.
hope this all helps ya out.
if interested let me know we can talk on this all day long.
harley

[Airyu]

Hello Everyone,
I have been a lurker here for sometime, and this is my first post on these forums. I hope I can answer some of your questions on the Sayoc Kali and Pekiti Tirsia kali training. I currently am studying directly under Grand Tuhon Gaje and Tuhon Sayoc. In the early 70's the Sayoc home was used by many Filipino masters to train. It was at first only filipino. Later it allowed others. Tuhon Gaje and The Sayoc family trained and shared material with each other, and from my understanding Pekiti Tirsia knife(Dagaso tirsia) developed further from the interaction. Tuhon Sayoc(Christopher) knows pretty much all of the early students of Pekiti Tirsia including Bill McGrath, Greg Alland etc.
All the Best
Steve

[Harley]

Welcome to the forum Steve!
I have already e-mailed you, and would just like to say that you are a lucky man to train with those Instructors. I hope to see more of your posts on here, don't hold back on us, if you study with the Tuhons, you definately have something to add to the forum.
welcome again.
harley

[Call Me Al]

Harley,

When they discuss the voluntary and involuntary muscle response to an attack are they also referring to how a person moves when one of the vital targets are attacked and does the next vital target in the set coincide with the response to the injury to the previous vital target in the set? (i.e. external jugular to the abdominal aorta).

Is the reference #3 of 9 the third template of nine templates or it there also a hidden meaning their as with the smoking knife series?

Have you joined the Sayocs and used their members only area. I am definitely thinking about joining as soon as the winter season is over and the gas bills go down.

Ray Dionaldo is a great guy. I have three of his training weapons and you are right they are excellent quality. Two of them are custom weapons (I had him make a panabas for me from a sketch)

[Samurai]

Carrying

Harley,

May I ask (with no disrespect intended)....
How can you carry a blade legally on an airplane. I was stopped when I tried to carry a 2 1/2" pocket knife into an airport. I had to leave it with security and pick it up later.

I can see that one could carry 2 sets of sharp chopsticks, a pocket full of BIC pens, a handful on spare change and maybe a rolled up newspaper. All of these can be used as throwing weapons, but most of these items are "at hand" anyway.

In Krav Maga we are taught to use everyday items as weapons. They fall into 1.)Weapons that are like a shield 2.) Weapons that are like a whip 3.) Weapons that are like a rock 4.) Weapons that are like a gun 5.) Weapons that are like a sword.

As you can see, a book can be used as a shield or a rock or thrown (like a gun). Why in the world would you carry 6-7 large knives with you around town??

I have read a little about the Sayoc system in Mark Wiley's book "Filipeano Fighting Arts". The system looks very complete and deadly, I just can not understand carrying a beltful of knives around.
Thanks
jeremy bays

[Harley]

hello guys,
I'll try to answer the questions in order. again, any mistakes i make are my own.
As for the "reflexive" and "conditioned" responses" they mean untrained or natrual and trained responses. and yes also when the target is actually hit. The next strike would be to the next target in the Vital Template which would be exposed due to the previous response. so yes, you are right on.
3 of 9 means that it is the 3rd set with 9 moves or targets. There are various sets, 36 basics, all divided up into Templates based on the number of targets. Although these seem complicated they are beautiful when you see them performed. (almost as beautiful as 7 of 9 if you know what i mean). There is also a 3 of 9 right hand, 3 of 9 left hand, a 3 of 9 true left, and it can also be done with the whip and projectiles. Truely an awesome training method.
Yes i have joined their Members page, i am now a "Offical Sayoc Training Group" and we have several members, so i am constantly looking for ideas and to try to gain more insight on their site. I enjoy it, they post seminar notes, school notes, pictures that explain various templates, historical notes, and are adding a forum so we can communicate better with one another. I recommend it when you get the chance.
Guro Dionaldo makes great stuff, as i said he made my whole rig and i love every piece, even the piece Jimmie Sayoc "borrowed" lol.
As for Samurai: i will answer your questions to the best of my ability, and no disrespect taken, that's what we are here for, to learn why others train and do what they do.
Personally i have no problem carrying my blades, several of my students carrry on airplanes all the time. recently on of my students flew to Korea and not one airport (not even customs) stopped him. perhaps the design of your blade was the problem, i had that happen once, very bad! i know know that not all blade styles are legal in all states, be sure of that when you travel.
Yes, you are right about those things you can carry. as for being on hand all the time, thats right, that's what we want, but the may not have some of the "specific" properties that we want, so we carry some common items that fit our needs a little better.
your correct that you cannot carry a "Full Rig" with you all the time, even in Texas! darn shame. however the rigs allow you to maximize training time, prevent bad habits and teach many valuable aspects of bladework. However, in World War II and others, all infantryman wore a webbelt and H harness, where they would carry knives and gear. Keep in mind that the Sayoc family has a rich tradition of Military service and many practices come from that experience.
Well, i know i rambled on so i go for now. thanks very much for your interests on this subject guys. all imput is welcome!
harley

[Samurai]

Thank you very much for a detailed reply. This helps me see where you are coming from a little better.
As I stated before, I did see the article or section on Sayoc Kali in Mark V. Wiley's book "Filipeano Fighting Arts". I was very impressed with the vital template concept. In the Japanese art I train in currently, we are dealing with pressure points and causing our attacker to turn and twist in "pre-definded" positions. In other words, if I hit here....attacker usually turns there and now I can hit here.

It sounds like the Sayoc Kali system is going that with the blade work.

I downloaded a clip of these guys in action from the Internet and I was quite impressed with the skill level shown. On the clip they are "playing" in a park somewhere and yet they are causing the attacker some serious pain.
I believe I found this clip at http://www.sayoc.com
Thanks
Jeremy Bays

[Harley]

Video Clip

hello Guys
Tuhon Sayoc shot some footage at the seminar here in Wichita Falls, tx. Alot of Whip with his son Jimmie and an Instructor named Danny. Great stuff and it's supposed to be on the site soon. Also they just shot a bunch of video and stuff in florida for their upcoming tape series! should be great stuff.
harley

[Airyu]

Sayoc Rig Information

Hello everyone,
As soon as everyone sees the Sayoc training rig, they assume that it is intended to be worn as an everyday affair. Far from the truth(although in combat yes). The rig is designed to represent various holstering positions that either you or your opponent could be using. It allows a user to train with a variety of blade placements that can be brought to bear on the opponent. This isn't limited to the user but also your oppoents blade holstering positions, beacuse this will dictate their probable response, or that you may block his attempted deployment,or even take their blade out and use it against them. This is a simplification of course as the rig allows many other options as well.
Train hard it is the Way!
Steve

[Call Me Al]

Harley,

Did they give a break down the templates into categories of the length of the knife blade used also (ie invisible knife series=folding knife) On the Edges 2 site they list the different training blades and styles endorsed by the Sayocs. I'm assuming each has its purpose.

Quick but morbid question. Did they discuss opponent body manipulation with a knife already embedded in the opponent