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SAYOC KALI where Pekiti Tersia gets it's knife skill

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  • #46
    Thanks Airyu for your reply. I was surprised by Harley's tone but I guess I offended him with my comments/humor. I was not comparing Sayock to Vonak's material, I just have limited exposure with knife material and this is my frame of reference.

    I am still surprised that no one addressed my legal questions/considerations. I almost think it would be more legally defensible to carry (illegally) a concelaed handgun rather than 5 knives and have to use it. I think it would be easier t argue an interest in self protection than if I was found with multiple fighting knives on my person or detectives recovered 5 blades with my fingerprints on them at a crime scene. It seems that Sayock emphasizes drawing the knives from different positions anyway. If I have the time to draw, I would rather draw my .45 ONCE and make you rethink bringing a knife to a gunfight!

    Though I know it is not this simple, would people agree that Sayock differs in that it 1) offers a "different" way of getting close, 2) has a "blade oriented targeting system"--geesh, sounds like a government training manual 3) offers first aid training 4) teaches knife throwing (my guess is that other philipino systems do this too, 5) seems to cost alot to train in (though if it is worth it I would do it).

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    • #47
      you let a child, 8 years old kid, take a blade class?

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      • #48
        Gymrat,

        I agree it would be hard to defend in court carrying multiple fighting knives but so is carrying a handgun concealed legally in our area without a ccw(which are few and far between). Even carrying multiple folders un 4" blade length would be hard to explain to a jury.

        It is basically how you articulate the incident and what you did to avoid the altercation. The best method if you have the option is to turn and run legally and selfdefense wise. The next best thing if you are continually pursued is to make it known to everyone around you do not wish to fight and you are being forced to by the other person (s) actions.

        We recently had an incident here where a couple of guys got into a fight a business with video. The "victim" who is a local bad gun got into a a fight with another local bad guy. The victim was observed trying to back up and avoid the fight. He backed down a long aisle (approximately 20 yards worth of retreat) flicking an article of clothing in the attacker's face while in motion. The attacker continued to take swings at the "victim".

        The "victim" then threw the clothing in the attacker's face and drew his folder from his front pocket. The attacker took two swings and the victim opens the folder and slashed attacker on the forearm during one of the two strikes. The attacker attempted one more strike before he realized he was cut and briefly backed off. The victim chased the attacker down the aisle making distance. The victim walked away and the attacker clutching his forearm follows the victim shouting taunts.

        The victim was not charged, as of yet, but it illustrates a good case of self defense. The victim backed off as long as he could until he thought he needed to respond. If there had not been a video with his checkered past may not have faired as well with the courts.

        As far as the projectiles and Sayocs. The projectiles could be coins, clothing or other objects which distract the opponent. I understand they also carry Throw down wooden knives which are typically the ones thrown. I would say they are employed at the point of no return where retreat is not an option. I do not know that having the knife stick or do damage is necessary either. I lt is typically a distraction to close the distance.

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        • #49
          Interesting post Al. You said that the guy who drew the knife hasn't been charged? I wouldn't be surprised if he was. He was distracting the guy (who was unarmed) then cut him, he could have kicked him in the balls rather than use his knife. I wonder if being so knife-prone might not get you into trouble because you might use a knife (because you train knives so much) when you should have used something else. I you are in a situation where you have to draw a knife, and YOU HAVE THE TIME TO DRAW, I guess I would rather draw a gun, otherwise i am going to have to rely on my fists and feet and 100yd dash time. Maybe I should focus on kali-knife training just to improve my ability to deal with a knife attack when I am unarmed. I am beginning to feel that training to use a knife isn't the most relevant thing in the modern world.

          I wonder how much of the popularity and fascination everyone here has with knives is a flash/spectalcular thing or maybe it has freudian roots! LOL

          I have appreciated all the intelligent discussion though. I am still interested in what people think makes Sayock different from other Kali styles.

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          • #50
            As far as letting kids train knives and knife fighting, I have to agree that it seems to be a profoundly irresponsible thing to do given all the violence we are seeing in schools.

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            • #51
              Gymrat,

              Something I did not really point out was the "victim" was defensive throughout the entire incidnet and was making it clear he did not want to fight verbally as he was retreating. The flicking of the clothig toward the guy's face was like flicking a towel in the locker room. The attacker was taking full power swings at the subject but was having a hard time connecting becasue of the distration. The attacker was also making legitimate threats he was going to kill the victim (which was noted by witnesses).

              The two had a long rocky history which made the death threats a real possiblility (The victim's roommate killed one of the attacker's family members during a home invasion robbery attempt).

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              • #52
                Out for a while

                I've been absent for a while, and I've missed about two pages of responses. There has been a lot said, and I think this will probably be my last stab at this particular thread (no pun intended) for the sake of keeping good information rather than personal attacks in the limelight. I reviewed the original post, and I think a lot of people have misunderstood. Several replies have asked for reasons why Sayoc Kali is "better" than other kali systems. No one has said that it is. Sayoc kali adds a new and different perspective to the blade aspect of kali, nad it's a very good perspective. It's not everything to everybody, but it's very useful, and it's easy to apply in real time. As far as rates go, if you want the material, pay the price. I personally took a lesson from one of Tuhon's instructors (meaning certified under Tuhon) and it cost me $60 for one of the most information-dense hours of training I've been fortunate enough to have in a long time. But I know it's pointless to debate how effective something is with people who aren't even willing to try it for themselves so I'll save that speech. Knuckledragger is a good illustration of why the rest of us train, though. So far, he's shown that he's truly offended by other people's enthusiasm for a new approach to training. He's throwing blame everywhere, saying that we're all gay, that we're all certificate hunters, etc. Under any other circumstance, I'd look at him and say he's a scared little waste of time, but honestly, I'm happy to see that the wrong people are in fact, staying away from these arts. Anybody can be an expert through a keyboard, and anybody can be tough. Fact is, I don't have a certificate from any of the Sayoc family, and I don't really care if that ever changes, but I would like to have the knowledge. Knuckledragger...it's hard to tell what in the hell you want. You obviously don't care about the certificates, and you're way too closed-minded to ever get a hold of any new knowledge, so why exactly do you train? That's rhetorical, by the way. You don't have to reply. But you know, so far you've shown that you are so stuck in your approach that there's just no room to grow. You'll probably become the guy that, later in life, continues to teach and train in things that worked great 30 years ago, but just aren't practical anymore, all the while talking your trash about what a combative master you are, and about how all these other people are missing the boat. And while it may sound strange, coming from me, I'd like to say thank you. It's guys like you that keep me winning fights.
                Mike Brewer

                PS: sorry, Harley. Didn't mean to fill up your thread with ignorant stuff.

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                • #53
                  Al, even with these facts I still stand behind my position as far as kicking the guy in the balls. If you were a cop and showed up on the scene and the "victim" knifed an unarmed attacker, regardless of the their circumstances and history (which no doubt came about during a POST incident investigation)-who would you believe? Unless (and maybe) if you know that the attacker killed someone with their bare hands, how can you justify knifing an unarmed person????? I don't know if you are trying to defend the knife user-I don't see how this is possible unless you are Johnny Cochran!

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                  • #54
                    Wow there as been a lot of discussion since I last was here. Guns are good can save your life and are important to know how to use but I would not put all my trust into one. The reason why is that I learned about a ten - twelve foot rule. This rule is that if you have a hand gun concealed in a holster snapped in with the safety on your attacker could be twelve feet away and when any one says go run towards you and stab you before your able to draw your gun hit off the safety and fire. Lets make it easy and say that your safety is off and the gun is holstered in a concealed location but not snapped down and your attacker is ten feet away try the drill again have a person yell go then the attacker charges with a knife while you draw the weapon and fire, again you will find your self stuck with a knife before getting off your shot most of the time. I've worked this drill extensively I found that when charging some one with a knife a lot of people will first take a step back before drawing thinking the space created by stepping back will give them more time to get their shot off. The truth is that extra step gives me just enough time to close in. A guy who has not trained in the quick drawing of a gun will often fumble with his gun when put under the pressure of my charge. The only time I have found my self regularly shot in the drill is when I allow the gun to be placed in an unconcealed location this way the guy with the gun doesn't have to reach underneath and fumble through clothing to draw the weapon and no safety is on and the gun is not snapped in. Doing the drill this way from ten to twelve feet starting distance I was shot before reaching my opponent every time but still close enough to dive forward after taking the shot and get my knife into the guy. Unless I'm shot in the face or throat I will most likely be able to stick my knife in the person before dying. Another thing I've learn is in going to a firing rang those who shoot guns there always fire from a shooting stance the two primary stances are one foot forward one foot back with the both hands on the gun arms straight out hips turned side ways with the shoulders squared off the other shooting stance that is common is feet parallel facing forward toward the target arms straight out in front shoulders and hips squared off towards the target. When doing this drill with trained marks men many of them won't even shoot or fire at me until they've set into their stance. This also gives me more time to close the distance and stick them. Also your taught in marksmanship to place your index finger straight above the trigger before firing and you only place your finger on the trigger when you are going to shoot this is a safety precaution and is taught to most police from my understanding as well when pointing a gun on some one don't put the finger on the trigger unless you are going to shoot. This small precaution if trained to become habit could also cost your life against a charging attacker from a ten to twelve foot distance and most altercations begin at much closer distance than ten to twelve feet. I trained this wearing a ski parka ski goggles and a wimpy little Bee Bee hand gun that I got at target. Most people don't know about this ten to twelve foot rule though and that gives those with guns a much better advantage. I've though about this a lot because if a guy comes into school or work or some place with the intention of mowing every one down I only need to be with in a ten foot range to pull my knife and kill the ass hole before he unloads on me or before I die when I get shot. I've never been in that situation before in real life but if I ever am I hope that through my training I will have the courage to charge and kill the guy before dying inorder to save every one else. Oh yea Harley I'm going to try throwing more than one knife at a time and see how that works. I've never trained with Hock before I've only read his knife fighting books and I saw a video of his the information I read and saw seemed to be pretty realistic and practical. Like you said about his skill even in the video the guy didn't look very coordinated again I've never trained with him though but that's interesting you said that I trained with a guy who's certified in all Hocks divisions and feels that hes one of the best guys to learn reality based training from, he said if I wanted to be an instructor under him I would have to go every seminar he hosts with Hock even if it ment that I'd have to not go to church. I didn't feel very good about that and was wondering if Hocks Organization is something any one here would recommend getting involved with?

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                    • #55
                      Gymrat,

                      Another aspect I did not previously cover has to do with stature. If an attacker is bigger than their victim the victim, there are some justifications in using a knife against an unarmed attacker. The actions have to be articulated and the correct circumstances have to be present for the situation to be justified. Another item I did not include was the attacker had a couple of friends with him which could have jumped at anytime.

                      The way it was explained to me: had the person continued to use the knife until the person was dead after the aggressive action stopped then there would be an excessive use of force, but since the weapon was only used until the aggressive action toward him ceased and the circumstances fit fear of lost of life it was justified.

                      Believe me I would like to both of the subjects in jail due to the fact they got into a fight in business where women, children and elderly people were present (One guy who I believe was approaching the century mark was only a couple of feet away when the bulk of the fight broke out.)

                      In our area there have been a lot of knife incidents and several have been found to be justified when heard by a jury. The bottom line is every situation is different and some are justified and some are not.

                      From tone, I get the feeling you are a DT instructor or law student.

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                      • #56
                        MIKEBREWER
                        you are a cornball and you live in "fantasy martial art world " I would never teach martial arts.You are the true keyboard warrior.I practice a martial art so ancient and secretive that any time I practice I must call the government to let them know i am working out.If I did have a school i would call it the" MIXED MODERN SCIENTIFIC PROGRESSIVE FUNCTIONAL DEFENSE AND COMBAT TRAINING ACADEMY " smell you later everyone !

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                        • #57
                          Nice reply groin grab. I was making somewhat a similar point by emphasizing the "IF YOU HAVE TIME TO DRAW". You see, I have done some IDPA shooting and am familiar with the rule you have stated concerning distance. My point is, if you don't have time to draw a gun, and there are some very accesible holsters out there, do you have time to draw a knife with a straight blade. Even worse, do you have time to to get out and use a folding knife. Ignoring a discussion of various ammunition and ballistic characteristics, you can stick someone with a knife and they will STILL BE ABLE TO STICK YOU BACK-just like the point you made with shooting a person. I didn't really mean to take this on a gun track, but the point about bringing out sheathed knives seems to make the idea of unholstering a handgun relevant too.

                          Al, I could see you point if it was a little old lady against a biker, but the scenario you described DOES NOT CALL FOR THE USE OF A KNIFE!

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                          • #58
                            re: recent comments about Tuhon Chris Sayoc

                            Hello all, what a great forum this is!! I wish my message forum looked like this one!!

                            Anyway, i had a really good chuckle reading some of the recent posts here...

                            First, i'd like to thank all the appropriate parties for taking the time to allow all of us the privilege of posting and sharing information on this board! My sincere respects!

                            Now, my comments... 1- as for Tuhon's weight... hmmm, i've been in training with some of the best martial artists in the world since 1971... Tuhon is the FASTEST one i have ever trained with... period.

                            2-Sayoc Kali is NOT about knifeduelling... instead, it is about how to survive, and how to effectively use a blade in a learned fashion to achieve a particular objective... the objectives you, the practitioner, will have to decide.

                            3-i find it rather humourous to think that so many of us are concerned about being pulled over, or searched by law enforcement personnel... after all, are WE the perps?? i don't believe so... i think that the vast majority of us are law abiding citizens, responsible people with a desire to allow ourselves and our loved ones the ability to protect ourselves, from harm and danger. We do not currently live in a police state, and certainly, do not expect that we would under normal circumstances be stopped by a police officer... it is that type of thinking which will allow the criminals to be armed, while we are taken at a considerable disadvantage by the would be attackers.

                            4-i'm sorry that some of the articles have been so dry on the site, i tend to be a bit too analytical. LOL

                            anyway, i really do hope to meet some of you and train together sometime!

                            if any of you are in New York, ever... please look me up!!

                            sincere respects, Jeff Chung

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                            • #59
                              I just want to say your absolutely right Gymrat if you have time to pull the knife you have time to pull the gun and vice versa. Also if you pull a knife and stick the guy in a vital target by all means he can stick you while your killing him. The only point I was trying to make was that a lot of people develop too much security about their guns I can't even tell you how many people have seen me training with a knife and then said "yea I'd like to see you use that against my gun" my response is usually "do you have your gun on you right now" for some reason every one of these wise guys never does and so they say "no" then my response is usually something like "well then your gun wouldn't do to well against it right now would it." Seriously I don't think the knife is superior to the gun in combat each weapon has it's place and so it's important to know how to use them all. If you have the time to draw either weapon and use it then I'm probably with you I don't see any reason not to opt for the gun but I'm open to hearing anyone else's view on this. What does every one else think about that? One thing is I'm still in college and it's easier for me to conseal and carry a couple of knives to school which is against school rules by the way no weapons of any sort are allowed on campus but I'd rather be caught with a knife on campus and say I was using it for utility purposes earlier that day and forgot to take it off rather than get caught with a hand gun and no license. I usally carry one or two folders to school and I only take my throwing knifes with me when I'm out in public.

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                              • #60
                                Hello guys,
                                first let me say darn it, that's the name of my school! how did knuckle dragger find out? LOL. it is funny! if you don't take it personally he really has some funny stuff.
                                next, wow, we are honored to have you present Guro Chung. Please by all means, hang around and share with us. As you know i am trying to provide people with some information on sayoc kali and it's past. I have helped to inform people but perhaps not in the most positive light, although i try hard to make it so.
                                Guns are great, that's why it's part of my curriculum as well.
                                as for the eight year old, he's been with me for a couple of years, he's a great kid, i am very close to him and his family. the other kid is his brother. they understand the realistic aspects of it and are very diciplined. they are my "pet projects" in this class. they will be in my class until they are eighteen at least due to fathers wishes, i want to produce the best results i can with them in that time. i agree it is risky, but the father and i agree that it's worth the risk, children all over the world are taught martial arts and weaponry, in thailand eight year old children use "Dah" thai swords full speed and power! perhaps they just need close supervision. i'll keep you up to date on there progress, good or bad.
                                i am pleased that so many people have posted and viewed this post. i would love to keep this thread running if we can be positive and express sincere concerns, like the legalities, that's a real concern, however i for one concentrate on carrying legal items instead of twenty knives. that's how i get around it.
                                let's set an example for others who read this post and keep it in the positive light i intended it originally.
                                sincerely,
                                harley
                                p.s. it's ok mike, that's why your the "enforcer" for the organization, lol

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