Stick Fighting

[bigboywasim]

I am going to a dojo right now that does full contact karate, hapkido (throws/locks) and arnis. My instructor said he does not want us to buy the expensive armor for stick fighting. He has decided that we will not spar with sticks. What do you guys think of this?

[lionleo]

Just respect what your instructor would like to do for now. Maybe he is just looking at the safety issues. But maybe in the coming days when you yourself feel that your stick work has improved..throw the idea of sparring again. Use either smak sticks or the like- these are good sparring equiptment that will help you in sparring realistically. Armors are okey as well..but you need to set parameters that a stick spar wont end up just banging each other with it, but actually using the techniques that you guys are learning..just my two cents.

[kuntawguro]

Insurance liability can be a big thing for small school owners. We do both- but I prefer the smak stix thing so that you know when you have been hit and react accordingly.

No big deal just train and get better and take advantage of what "IS" available

[FMAFIGHTER]

If a student is a beginner he/she may pick up bad habits while sparring. Improper footwork , wrong angle feeds, or not knowing the proper distance. Also insurance may also be a factor.

With respects,

Errol Ballesteros

[haumana2000]

my two cents regarding sparring.

In response to what you had stated that your instructor does not want you to buy the expensive equipment because you would not be sparring with sitcks. To me this would send up a red flag. Why? full contact karate but no sparring even with the heavy armor? my alarms would be going off especially if you are investing in the armor yourself. you mentioned arnis but what kind? very few "reputable" arnis schools would not have you spar at least in some type of capacity.

is it arnis or stick twirling? I have seen many similar schools that use "arnis" as an add on art but it has no value, just kicks with sticks for demos this is what is then presented to the public as arnis, and why when people who love REAL FMA are asked about KAli/Esrima/Arnis, others respond, oh you guys do the stick twirling... no thanks.

I dont mean this to be in any way offensive to you bro, jus curious about the style, and why they would not want to apply something they sell as self defense in any type of sparring environment.

[JBrainard]

My instructor said he does not want us to buy the expensive armor for stick fighting. He has decided that we will not spar with sticks. What do you guys think of this?

As many above have posted, it's kinda lame that he won't even let you train with slap sticks. All you would need to buy would be a helmet.

[jules]

you don't need to start sparring with ironwood sticks. there are sparring sticks that hurt but won't give you serious injuries

[William]

My first response would be to look elsewhere if you are really interested in the FMA's. Why?

You've got to test the tools.

Anyone who remembers me from the earlier days here knows I'm an advocate of full contact, real stick, minimal gear sparring. There is no way you will ever figure out what will really work, and work for you personally if you don't get out there and test it out in real time. Heavy armor tends to breed bad habits. As my guys always hear me say: "Pain is a good corrector of bad habits". basically meaning that if you aren't feeling the feedback through that heavy armor, how are you going to know what mistakes you are making? I've seen too many people wade into shots to get into corto range, not knowing they got hit, or respecting the shots since they don't really feel them. Take off that armor and watch how their technique and tactics change. You're not going to wade in and absorb that shot to your head, collarbone, or hands (or that trusty thrust to the chest/midsection) without it. When you're dealing with weapons, edged weapons esp, you can't afford to stand toe to toe and exchange blows. You have to train to hit with out being hit. And nothing will get you to move more then knowing what it feels like to get hit for real. To me, two guys with heavy armor standing toe to toe whacking away at each other paints a picture of something seriously wrong.

Now, with that being said, I don't make everyone jump right in to full contact minimal gear sparring. But I will gradually work people toward that goal. As I said, you've got to test the tools. I will let them use hockey helmets (since you'll still know you got your bell rung from a head shot), shin & forearm guards, gloves and cups. I used to have some modified motorcycle helmets for beginners but I've stopped using them in favor of the modified hockey helmets. Eventually I like to work them in fencing masks, street hockey/batting gloves (or bare handed), and cups. No heavy Michelin man suits or leather shrouds.

"But William, what about injuries?"

I'm glad you asked, we have yet to have any serious injuries. Bruises, welts, abrasions, and some cuts happen, but nothing serious. You might occasionall see stars as well. The bottom line with my guys is that we are a family and we want to be able to come back and train the next day. It's not about killing each other, but walking that fine line between training as realistically as possible, and minimizing serious injuries.

So again, I would say move on to something else.



William

[JBrainard]

My first response would be to look elsewhere if you are really interested in the FMA's. Why?

The OP said nothing about looking for a new dojo, he was asking about stick sparring. Please have the courtesy to toot your art's horn on another forum.

[William]

The OP said nothing about looking for a new dojo, he was asking about stick sparring. Please have the courtesy to toot your art's horn on another forum.

bigboywasim: I am going to a dojo right now that does full contact karate, hapkido (throws/locks) and arnis. My instructor said he does not want us to buy the expensive armor for stick fighting. He has decided that we will not spar with sticks. What do you guys think of this?

Well, let's see:

"My instructor said he does not want us to buy the expensive armor for stick fighting. He has decided that we will not spar with sticks. What do you guys think of this?"

So, he is asking for our opinion. I stated mine, why I think that way, and gave an example of how we do it. At no time did I direct him to any particular FMA system, nor did I tell him to come and train with us. Obviously you have a problem with my opinion, which is fine. But I'll stick to it: If you're supposed to be training a Filipino martial art, and they won't let you spar....look elsewhere.

The OP can listen to my opinion or ignore it. That's his prerogative...just as it is yours.



William

[haumana2000]

And please bear in mind Mr. Brainard that this is the umm.. how can I put this? FMA forum? lol.

Tooting the arts horn? William was speaking only of the importance of sparring to effectively learn what you can do under pressure. There are wayyyy too many, my style is too deadly to spar with people out there.

thanks.

Braddah Haumana

[JBrainard]

I am going to a dojo right now that does full contact karate, hapkido (throws/locks) and arnis. My instructor said he does not want us to buy the expensive armor for stick fighting. He has decided that we will not spar with sticks. What do you guys think of this?

My first response would be to look elsewhere if you are really interested in the FMA's.

Sure sounds like you're suggesting that he ditch his dojo.

So, he is asking for our opinion. I stated mine, why I think that way, and gave an example of how we do it. At no time did I direct him to any particular FMA system, nor did I tell him to come and train with us. Obviously you have a problem with my opinion, which is fine. But I'll stick to it: If you're supposed to be training a Filipino martial art, and they won't let you spar....look elsewhere.
The OP can listen to my opinion or ignore it. That's his prerogative...just as it is yours.
William

So that you understand why I responded to William's post as I did:
The OP established that he is currently taking classes at this school, and made no suggestions that he would like to leave. He then established his teacher's stance on stick fighting. I am assuming that he created the OP to find a possible solution given his specific circumstances.
My objection to William's response was not the content (which was great), but that it doesn't help solve the OP's dilemma.
Analogy: OP askes, "What fruit is easiest to chew, but it can't be apples?" William replies, "Apples!"
Doesn't really help the OP much.
Sorry if I came off as a jerk or something, I just didn't want the thread to drift away from helping the OP.
Peace,
~JB

[dredd1990]

At my school, i teach ninjutsu and kenjutsu. i will not teach students how to use weapons until they make 4th-5th kyu. this is not for insurance reasons or anything of that sort. i also do not teach them kill strikes, or kill methods. there are secrets where one could perform a takedown, and before the target hits the ground they would either be, A: paralyzed. or B: Dead. i make them wait till 5th kyu because i need to knwo i can trust them with this technique, and that i know they arent just there to learn the kill strikes, because many will just go and brag to friends. My dojo only accepts kids by application. not like a usual school where, you flash cash and tell the instructor what to teach. i teach as a lifestyle, much like bushido. everyone has that one "student" in the class that thinks he knows every martial art known to man. and has mastered each. its funny to make up some official sounding combat style and ask if he knows it, 90% of the time, they say yes they do. but i digress... if your instructor says no sticks, then there will be no sticks for this time period. he may be simply testing you to see how far you can push yourself. much like i do with my students. and remember... every class you start with yoru instructor, your teaching him as well. Blackbelt litterally means, beginning student =D. just give it some time, when he learns he can trust you, many new doors will open to you.
~Strick~

[haumana2000]

Ok, guys.
William Said: "look elsewhere if you are really looking for "FMA's" It is the Op's choice to decide if he wants to stay at his gym but if He is looking to spar with Sticks as was his question, then I would say yes, look for an FMA instructor. (also once again he asked this in the FMA forum, if he wanted a karate teachers opinion he should of asked it there)

As an FMA instructor and Cultural arts teacher I feel there are way to many drillmasters out there from other styles who learn a sinawali drill, and all of a sudden Bang on the front window there it is "NOW OFFERING ARNIS". As a Filipino I feel that this is a slap in the face and was unfortunately the byproduct of some of our forefathers who did what they had to do in this country by offering our effective arts as simply add on material at karate and taekwondo schools. This has left us with the current stigma that arnis or fma is only sticks and has no empty hand application. Belive me I have seen demos of guys doing"arnis" but its just karate kicks with inneffective x blocks a hiyah! and then a side kick. THAT IS NOT FMA.

Now Dredd 1990 I understand your position with regards to your training progression, however that is a Japanese methodology and is opposite of what we believe in FMA. We start with the weapon first, then move to hands.
that does not mean where targeting the arteries with a knife on the first day either. but martial art implies that it is mean for warfare.

A point that I need to make however is that you do not teach your "secret techniques" of how to kill via takedown before they even hit the ground. I am highly speculative on any empty technique that can kill before you hit the ground or secret death points or the like. But In Bob Orlando's book "indonesian fighting arts and fundamentals", he brings to light an interesting point to ponder. Even Aikido the Harmonious way is constantly lifting opponents and slamming them on their head repeatedly (anyone who does bnot know how to breakfall) all the while stating this is not to hurt which compley denies what each technique really does and is meant to do. so rather than trivializing each move no matter at an advanced or beginning stage should we not take the stance of a firearms instructor from the get go and teach to respect the weapon and what its meant to do right away?

feedback?
with respect haumana

[William]

JB, I understand where you are coming from. Though I don't think your analogy applies. I think a better way to state it would be: "The fruit vendor won't let us have apples here. What do you think?" Where I replied; "Go to a different fruit vendor if you really want apples." You may feel that is not a helpful suggestion. But if his instructor is not going to let them spar, he's not going to let them spar. He could go off and do it on his own, but then he runs the risk of developing bad habits/technique without the watchful eye of a good instructor. If he wants to go through the motions, he should stay. If he wants' more realistic FMA training, he should look elsewhere...imho of course.

I feel very much the same way as Haumana and believe that the FMA's should be kept pure and combative as they were intended. Not a watered down group of stick based twirling techniques that are passed off as FMA's. I am not of Filipino heritage, but like Haumana, I get irked to no end about the watered down, incomplete stuff I see out there used as an add on in some schools, and passed off as real & complete Arnis, Kali, Eskrima. Also, the paper tigers who go to a couple of seminars and are all of a sudden seasoned instructors. One example: There is a well established school not too far away that teaches a popular system from the middle east. They teach Arnis classes as an addition. In a conversation about FMA's with an instructor there, his response to my going into a detailed explanation of footwork in the FMA's....."There's footwork in the Filipino martial arts?" My jaw hit the floor while my blood pressure took off. This type of attitude and propagation creates the "stigma" that Humana refers to.

To further another point Haumana made:

Now Dredd 1990 I understand your position with regards to your training progression, however that is a Japanese methodology and is opposite of what we believe in FMA. We start with the weapon first, then move to hands.

The distinguishing characteristic of the Filipino martial arts is the principle that weaponry is instructed first and then progresses into the final stage to empty hands skills. The strategic reasoning behind this structure is that:



1. The nature of warfare is the utilization of weaponry - not empty hands.



2. Attribute Development - the use of weaponry and bladed weapons in particular,

develops and enhances combative attributes and application at a more intensive level and faster rate than empty hands training.



3. The Filipino methods of empty hand combat are derived directly from the application of weaponry verses having completely different styles of empty hands skills and weaponry technique. This principle of parallel methodology and transferable technology in its truest form can only be found within the Filipino martial arts. These methods and skills transfer from bladed, impact and other edged weapons to empty hands combat and directly back to weapons.

A point that I need to make however is that you do not teach your "secret techniques" of how to kill via takedown before they even hit the ground. I am highly speculative on any empty technique that can kill before you hit the ground or secret death points or the like. But In Bob Orlando's book "indonesian fighting arts and fundamentals", he brings to light an interesting point to ponder. Even Aikido the Harmonious way is constantly lifting opponents and slamming them on their head repeatedly (anyone who does bnot know how to breakfall) all the while stating this is not to hurt which compley denies what each technique really does and is meant to do. so rather than trivializing each move no matter at an advanced or beginning stage should we not take the stance of a firearms instructor from the get go and teach to respect the weapon and what its meant to do right away?

Well, with that firearms training, you should take it to the point of actually firing the weapon. Not going through the motions and then yelling BANG!!!


William