FMA equivalent of bowing?

[LtMedTB]

May I please know what kind of symbolic signs of respect you show to each other (or your instructors) when you train in traditional Kali-Silat? Or is there something you do at your school, club, or gym? I'm just curious. I learned martial arts from a non-traditional JKD instructor (goes without saying I guess) and I noticed some sort of ritual that Erik Paulson and Rick Young gave to Dan (and maybe each other) somewhere in the Definitive Dan Inosanto Collection. It made me curious as to what it was, what it meant, and what the rest of you are doing out there. Sometimes I like the idea of a little sign of mutual respect that two fighters can give each other when they are done training a drill or sparring, etc. If you could let me know what you do, what it means, and perhaps even post a URL that shows it, that would be interesting for me. Thanks a lot!

Tom

[Guest]

Before I start, I'll go on record as saying that respect between training partners, students, instructors, and friends is shown by turning up for training and helping your partner grow. Bowing is something I don't have any time for with my students, friends or training partners - it is someone else's notion of respect and I don't feel comfortable with it. However, I bow to my teachers because it is part of their belief system, so I respect that.

With that out of the way, to answer your question:

There are a range of bows or salutations in FMA, based on whether you have a weapon in your hand or not. The one that you speak of, used universally in the Inosanto/Lacoste family, is taken from yoga. It is the two hands held to the forehead in a prayer shape, with a slight bow of the head. The meaning behind the bow is "the god in me respects/honours the god in you".

[LtMedTB]

Before I start, I'll go on record as saying that respect between training partners, students, instructors, and friends is shown by turning up for training and helping your partner grow. Bowing is something I don't have any time for with my students, friends or training partners - it is someone else's notion of respect and I don't feel comfortable with it. However, I bow to my teachers because it is part of their belief system, so I respect that.

Thank you for the reply, Michael. I really appreciate it. I totally agree with showing respect by showing up on time, being serious-minded about training, and helping each other grow. Out of curiosity, is there anything you say to end a drill? Like, "break". Do you just wait until it spontaneously ends? Is there a handshake or anything else that you use with your students? My instructor (a black guy in a rough neighborhood on the east side of Cleveland) used the "soul brother handshake" but that was usually at the very end of your training session before you left the gym. I think it was just how he said "see you later."

In the Definitive Dan Inosanto Collection I remember Dan saying how a non-traditional approach to martial arts (like JKD and the way he teaches FMA) requires more maturity for both student and instructor. The instructor, he says, should be more like a father. The instructor should allow the student to respectfully question what he's being taught, and the instructor should listen to the student with an open mind, but in the end the student should stand in the path the instructor wants out of respect. Dan also said that he's made some mistakes, but on the whole he likes this approach.

I read an interesting article at the Inosanto Academy website called "Competing With Your Instructor" and I can think of at least one student who had a falling out with my instructor because he became arrogant. It sounds like this is something that all instructors deal with at least once in their martial arts career. It sounds like the non-traditional approach lends itself to this problem, at least to a degree, and I was wondering if a very subtle, scaled-down tradition like the one you describe below helps keep things in a better perspective for both the students and the instructor. Have you ever had a problem with a student that was disrespectful in the way the article describes? If so, may I please know how you handled it?

With that out of the way, to answer your question:

There are a range of bows or salutations in FMA, based on whether you have a weapon in your hand or not. The one that you speak of, used universally in the Inosanto/Lacoste family, is taken from yoga. It is the two hands held to the forehead in a prayer shape, with a slight bow of the head. The meaning behind the bow is "the god in me respects/honours the god in you".

That's interesting. I actually really like the sentiment. I thought maybe they were making a Kali triangle up to their forehead. If you (or anyone else) knows where I can read more on this subject, I'd appreciate it if you'd chime in and post the URL or recommend a book.

Thanks again, Michael!

[bodhisattva]

Before I start, I'll go on record as saying that respect between training partners, students, instructors, and friends is shown by turning up for training and helping your partner grow. Bowing is something I don't have any time for with my students, friends or training partners - it is someone else's notion of respect and I don't feel comfortable with it. However, I bow to my teachers because it is part of their belief system, so I respect that.

I couldn't agree more.

I'd further say that bowing is a relic from an antiquated "authority based" mindset that involved a lot of fear and a lot of social nonsense.

I think people are better off becoming their own personal authority, and ceasing the practice of raising teachers (or anyone else) to some supposed higher level of being.


But that doesn't change the fact that when I'm visiting someone's Judo class I bow, and will continue to bow, on cue and when everyone else does so.

It's just simple courtesy.

[jubaji]

I don't feel comfortable with it.

.........................

Why not?

[jubaji]

I couldn't agree more.

I'd further say that bowing is a relic from an antiquated "authority based" mindset that involved a lot of fear and a lot of social nonsense.

You may be thinking about it too much.

[LtMedTB]

I couldn't agree more.

I'd further say that bowing is a relic from an antiquated "authority based" mindset that involved a lot of fear and a lot of social nonsense.

I think people are better off becoming their own personal authority, and ceasing the practice of raising teachers (or anyone else) to some supposed higher level of being.


But that doesn't change the fact that when I'm visiting someone's Judo class I bow, and will continue to bow, on cue and when everyone else does so.

It's just simple courtesy.

Even when it means "the God in me respects/honours the God in you"? It sound to me like this honors the Creator more than the instructor. Maybe that's why I like it.

Tom

[Guest]

Thank you for the reply, Michael. I really appreciate it. I totally agree with showing respect by showing up on time, being serious-minded about training, and helping each other grow. Out of curiosity, is there anything you say to end a drill? Like, "break". Do you just wait until it spontaneously ends? Is there a handshake or anything else that you use with your students?

I read an interesting article at the Inosanto Academy website called "Competing With Your Instructor" and I can think of at least one student who had a falling out with my instructor because he became arrogant. It sounds like this is something that all instructors deal with at least once in their martial arts career. It sounds like the non-traditional approach lends itself to this problem, at least to a degree, and I was wondering if a very subtle, scaled-down tradition like the one you describe below helps keep things in a better perspective for both the students and the instructor. Have you ever had a problem with a student that was disrespectful in the way the article describes? If so, may I please know how you handled it?

No worries.

They way I run my sessions is just based on common sense language and instructions, to end a drill or a round of sparring I just call “time”. As guys (and girls) we thank each other by shaking hands, touching gloves, or giving each other a hug. Or sometimes just a simple “thank you mate I enjoyed that” is enough to let your partner know that you valued the training. Like Bodhi says, bowing feels like a relic from another time and another culture, I prefer my students in 2008 to just be themselves.

That is a great article that you linked to, written by a friend of mine in Minneapolis called Diana Rathborne. You won’t find a better example of the kind of open, friendly, no BS person I like to associate with in martial arts. In addition to being an excellent practitioner and instructor, Diana is like the mother of the Minnesota Kali Group family, and looks after us all so well.

Anyway, to answer your question I have been really fortunate with my students, and I can’t recall anyone ever being disrespectful to me, but then I think its important to clarify my version of respect. No one who comes to train with me owes me anything, I owe them. It doesn’t matter what certificates I have on the wall, they have come to learn, I am there to provide a service. Pretty much all of my students, at one time or another, have tried to take my head off in sparring – but that’s a good thing. The reason I started teaching was to find training partners, people I could share the art with and help them grow, so that they could then help me grow. My students are now all my friends, some of them best friends, and they are all at a level that challenges me (in fact several are now much better than me). They have shown me respect by sticking with me all these years and helping me grow as much as I have helped them, and a few heated sparring sessions along the way has only added to the fun

[Guest]

.........................

Why not?

Not really sure jubs. At first I thought it was because my students are friends, and it just felt daft for them to be bowing to me, it felt contrived. Then when I started teaching seminars, people were calling me Sifu, Guro, Sir and bowing to me all the time. I found myself constantly saying “you don’t need to bow to me, and just call me Michael”. The more it happened, the more uncomfortable I felt, and now I just tell everyone at the start not to bother.

It isn’t an “I’m not worthy” thing, there’s too much false humility in martial arts as it is. I think it may be the influence of Paul (Vunak) who raised me in a group where everyone was an equal, everyone was a friend, and no one had to bother with heirs and graces. I liked that, it made me feel at home, so I guess behaviour breeds behaviour.

[Hardball]

You may be thinking about it too much.

That's a profound thing to say. I owe you positive rep for that remark!

[Hardball]

Not really sure jubs. At first I thought it was because my students are friends, and it just felt daft for them to be bowing to me, it felt contrived. Then when I started teaching seminars, people were calling me Sifu, Guro, Sir and bowing to me all the time. I found myself constantly saying “you don’t need to bow to me, and just call me Michael”. The more it happened, the more uncomfortable I felt, and now I just tell everyone at the start not to bother.

It isn’t an “I’m not worthy” thing, there’s too much false humility in martial arts as it is. I think it may be the influence of Paul (Vunak) who raised me in a group where everyone was an equal, everyone was a friend, and no one had to bother with heirs and graces. I liked that, it made me feel at home, so I guess behaviour breeds behaviour.

False humility is better than no humility.

[Guest]

False humility is better than no humility.

Sorry, couldn't disagree more. False humility is no humility.

Its all the instructors who walk around saying "oh you know I'm really not that good, I'm just a beginnner, I'm not worthy to be in the same room as you...."

First of all, you're right, you probably aren't that good, but you don't believe that. You say it so that everyone will fawn all over you and say "no no, you're the man, you're awesome". Thats not humility. Secondly, if you really don't think you are that good or worthy to be in the same room as me, then why are you charging me $100 an hour for private lessons and trying to sell me t-shirts with your name all over it? I don't see a lot of humility in that.

I prefer people to be straight and just say to me "You know what Mike, I believe in my ability. I have trained for a long time and put 100% into my art, so I'm proud of what I have achieved. I think I have a lot to offer you".

Fuckin A, lets roll.

[thekuntawman]

each culture has a way of showing respect for the one who is giving them knowledge. for some its how you greet them (bowing, etc.). for some other ones, its in how you treat them (when i came to the US, i use to send money home to my teachers). then even to others you take their name, for your school or style, and even for other teachers to give "omage" each time you show there techniques or pass knowledge, like a story, you mention who it came from. and then for one of my teachers, lights incense each time you teach a class to remember him.

in some cultures you will call the teacher by a family name, like uncle, older brother, etc.

in this culture, we are more buyers and sellers, so you will not hear an educated man talk much about his teachers, once he takes the lesson, we think of the learned man, as if it came from the school or title (phd, the univeristy, the name of the degree) instead of who taught him. but even in this culture, some people pay the same respects to the one who taught him, like some doctors went to a more experienced one to learn a specialty, there is more of a teacher/student relationship like we have in the martial arts.

so each culture, you have levels and ways of respect. even inside the same culture, people have their own way from one gym to another, or one master to another. when we study under the master we choose (or who chosed us), we accept all of this training at least while we are there. and this, is a form of respect. when you have your students, you choose how you will train your students and what your culture will be. and you will choose how to continue respect to the one who taught you, or you can own the knowledge like they do in regular college education, and just use the title without talking about your teachers at all. nothing wrong with that, this is just a difference of culture.

[thekuntawman]

Sorry, couldn't disagree more. False humility is no humility.

i agree with this statemant. some people think as martial artists, we all must act humility. in my culture, the warrior is allowed to show some arrogance or cockiness... this is part of being a warrior. we are not kwai chang kane monks or something.

[jubaji]

in my culture, the warrior is allowed to show some arrogance or cockiness... .

What culture is that?