Knife Tapping Drills

[LtMedTB]

Can anyone recommend a good source for knife tapping drills? I've seen some examples at YouTube that look interesting, but I don't want to develop any bad habits. Thanks in advance!

[Guest]

I certainly feel that there are numerous elements, of a range of martial arts, that can be absorbed or at least well supplemented by audio/visual learning. However, when it comes to something like knife tapping, I don't feel there is any worth.

A concept used in Filipino Martial Arts is "technique without reflex is worthless" and although I don't feel that has to apply to every stage of your learning, I feel it does with knife tapping. I see lots of knife tapping done very badly, you can always see when someone hasn't had the correct instruction, just like when you can see someone who has tried to learn chi sao from a video.

Knife tapping, in my opinion, has to be learned from an experienced instructor from day one. It doesn't matter what your knife tapping may "look like", an experienced person needs to be on the other end of that blade, feeling what you are doing with your timing and pressure, and making very small corrections and observations that can only come from feel and flight time.

To endorse the concern expressed at the end of your post, by trying to access these drills in any other way I believe you will only develop bad habits.

[LtMedTB]

Thanks, Michael. Not to worry, I'm getting ready to start training seriously again, this time under Rick McElroy. I agree that technique without sensitivity or reflex is worthless, but I also think that it's possible for two people -- particularly if one has experience -- to practice something (even something that requires sensitivity) from a video and figure it out. I know because I've done it! In fact, I first learned chi sao from a book, and then VHS, and then from a qualified instructor.

You're right, two novices attempting chi sao after reading a book looks like a couple of monkeys [fornicating] a football. However, after repeated failures, there is marginal improvement until eventually you relax your shoulders and your elbows come in and you are able to pull off some basic traps. You have to start somewhere. After all, someone was the first to figure it out, without the benefit of books, VHS tapes, DVDs, or a qualified instructor. I was just hoping to prevent the wasted time of practicing something that wasn't the best possible drill available and then have to amend the technique later on.

There are two schools of thought here. One is that bad habits are worse than no habits. The other is that bad habits give you something to work with. I've had good habits, bad habits, and no habits. Bad habits are only really bad when you can't change them, even when someone demonstrates your ignorance by hitting you, trapping you up, or tying you up on the ground. Here's an example of a YouTube video that I think does an excellent job explaining the correct application of the sumbrada drill.

I've actually done some limited knife tapping at a seminar given by Dan Inosanto, but as you know, at seminars you just grab a partner and the instructors walk around and tell you if you're doing something wrong. There was so much information covered that it would have been impossible to retain it all, and frankly, I don't even remember exactly what drill we did, but I'd like to try it again.

I'm a firefighter, so I'm stuck at work for 24 hours. I have a training partner (another firefighter who had zero martial arts experience when I started training him) and I was just looking for a new drill to throw into the mix. I'm starting my training with Rick next Wednesday, and I have no idea where we're going to begin. I actually met him at the Inosanto seminar. He was the host.

[LtMedTB]

This looked pretty good to me in comparison to some of the others.

[Guest]

Dude........paragraphs!

[LtMedTB]

My apologies! LOL! All better now.

[LtMedTB]

This is also one of the better knife training vids I've seen.

[Garland]

...I had a fun time this week messing with a pal doing some knife work. I was trying to teach him the outside polysut flow drill...and after about 20 minutes he picked it up pretty solidly, we were moving around a bit, not in any technical/tactical footwork but more or less just circling and moving forward and back over uneven ground. After this I showed him some sloppy knife tapping (just passing the blade, really...really gross motor)..I decided as an expirement to pull out a training folder (hoping he wouldn't see it was fake) I had in my back pocket after we took a break and I flashed it at him quick and put it behind my back and told him that I wanted to try it for real and that I was going to do the same motion and if he didn't move I'd cut him up. (I'm such a pal!)

For some reason, he moved alot better when I did that, hollowed out his stomach and moved his leg out of the way a whole lot quicker.

...am I mean?

[Guest]

I actually think thats a cool way to spike the intent on a drill. As I have posted on here before I don't agree with or endorse live blade work, but to convince your partner that you are using a live blade when in actual fact the drill remains perfectly safe, is a good call. I can understand why his attributes shifted a gear.

Guess the question is, how many times will you fool him with that, how dumb is he?

[Garland]

Guess the question is, how many times will you fool him with that, how dumb is he?

Oh...I think I may be able to do it at least a few more times with this one.

[LtMedTB]

I respect your opinion and your skills as a martial artist, Michael, and I know you were referring specifically to knife tapping. This is not to contradict you, but just to show an alternate way of looking at it. I found this while researching biographical information on Dan Inosanto. I just happened to run across it today, and I was reminded of this thread.

"Inosanto's hybrid philosophy also carries forward to his manner of teaching. In a typical conversation to a new student, he can be overheard explaining, "I'm going to let you do it wrong, because if I don't interrupt you, then you'll catch on and eventually get the feel of it. Martial arts are like that. In the beginning classes, I do very little correcting. I could say, 'Your hips should be this way; your body should be that way.'

Forget about all that. First get the whole product.

"A lot of people are worried about the student developing bad habits," Inosanto continues, "but that's not really a problem. If there's something grossly in error, I would stop (the student). But as long as it resembles the technique to a certain degree, and the major body mechanics are there, I let it go. The most important thing is the flow. Don't break the flow."

So... can anyone recommend some knife tapping drills? The Sayoc transition drills look pretty good. What is the first drill you learned?

[Guest]

Bud, although I appreciate your kind words, its perfectly fine to disagree and contradict me. I enjoy forthright views and honest opinion, I come on here for discussion and debate. I'm just a guy on the end of a keyboard like you, so by all means let's disagree, thats totally cool.

Everything I write on here is based purely on my own experiences as a student and a teacher. The quotes you have posted from Guro Dan is a great argument, and I'm sure that works for him, but I'm not Dan Inosanto. I can't do what he does, and maybe I can't do what you do, I can only speak from my own experiences. Based on those experiences, my views on Knife Tapping stand. But you've heard what I have to say, so I'll step aside and let others contribute.

Good talking to you.

[Tant01]

To be honest I sort of fancy myself a "knife" guy... Not an artist by any stretch but cutting is easy...I never had much FORMAL training with a blade. Not by any "real" master or a name folks might recognize.

I started with a live blade around age six. I think I was in the cub scouts or something. Had to get one of those CUB SCOUT knives! Oh yeah! You know the one with the fork and the spoon? Those sure seemed awesome back in the day! LOL

Serious OJT with a knife gave me a taste for the fixed blades! I love a K-Bar! For safety we would wrap DUCT tape on the blade but I learned to throw a knife fairly well. Beat a few blades to death in the process! Just screwing around, right?

Trapping and passing was a real eye opener! He's got a knife in his hand (OH SHIT!)

REALLY! There's a reality check for ya! Just ad INTENT! Who needs training with a weapon like THAT>???

Seriously floks? Knives are dangerous and I have scars to prove it. On my hands and my arm and BOTH legs (darn it) Didn't quite get out of range THAT time! (OOPS!!!) Seriously! Cut a good pair of pants clean through! LOL Shit happens people. If you play like that you need insurance! Stitches cost big bucks. And it hurts!

Just saying...

You know? Be careful and stuff...

Tant01 out...

[LtMedTB]

Anyone have experience with the Shocknife?

[LtMedTB]