Is FMA really learned quickly?

[chip]

I was reading that the FMA are designed to be learned quickly due to thier combat orientated background. From everyones experience, is this true?

[Guest]

In my experience the opposite is true.

The Filipino Martial Arts have an extraordinary range of breadth and depth, its a lifetime's study. The the system I train in, Inosanto/Lacoste blend, has 12 areas or subsets to learn. I maybe hold a reasonable grip on 4 or 5 of them, and I have been studying those for 14 years.

FMA is an amazing study, but if someone asked me for an art that was quick to learn, it would probably be at the bottom of the list. And that, in my opinion, is to it's credit.

[ttruscott]

I think it can be a very useful and fun lifetime study but the first year gives you good basics for self defence and the understanding of how you might be attacked by someone with a stick or knife if you already study something else,

Ted

[William]

Michael Wright.....

I agree with you. And I disagree with you.

To train and understand the breadth of the Filipino systems will take a good chunk of time and dedication. With that I whole heartedly agree. To get a person combatively effective can be done in a relatively short period of time. Consider that today, people have the luxury of taking the time to learn different arts that take many years of training to get good at. Taking 20 years to get good at a martial art is useless when defending your country from invaders. If you lose a battle with heavy casualties, are you going to be able to wait 5, 8, 10, 15, or 20 years to replenish your ranks? A sign of a good combat system is one that can get you combatively proficient in a short period of time. IMHO the FMA's (and Muay Thai/Krabi-Krabong) do just that. The FMA’s have always been about incorporating whatever is successful/useful from other systems. The countries location along prime shipping routes brought them into contact with many different cultures and fighting systems. The existence of many different tribes who would war against each other continually kept the multitude of fighting systems evolving. Insurrection against foreign occupiers for over 300 years, plus the Filipinos who were conscripted and taught to fight for the Spanish (on top of their indigenous fighting systems) against their brothers meant that they continually had to train/learn to fight and get new recruits ready in relatively short periods of time to keep the ranks strong. Two points to remember about warfare are:

First: Warfare is the use of weaponry, not open hand.
Two: Getting troops/warriors ready for battle as quickly as possible.

Becoming combatively efficient, and learning an entire systems are two different animals.

So again, I agree and disagree with you.


Best regards,
William

[Guest]

Thats all very interesting, but you are talking about warfare and history. I'm talking about a guy in 2009 who seeks accelerated learning to become combat efficient for the average person (I'm assuming "Chip" is)

He isn't walking onto a battlefield, nor would I imagine does he largely care what happened when the Spanish occupied the Philipines a few hundred years ago. As teachers we need to honestly answer the question in front of us, not try to retrofit a rationale just to uphold someone else's belief system. He asked if the Filipino martial arts could be learned quickly to an effective combative degree, to which my answer is still no.

The vast majority of FMA is based on fine motor skills which you are taught to absorb over a lengthy period of time via an inordinate volume of drills and patterns, compounded by an endless indulgence of variation. That does not meet my understanding of efficient, accelerated learning.

I love FMA, I just don't try to force a square peg into a round hole. I have other round pegs that fit just fine, they are what I would teach Chip.

[chip]

Thanks for all the input. I have practiced several style of MA over the years. And find myself very frustrated with the systems that take 20 years to master. That is great in the name of "Art". But what if I must defend myself next week, next month, or even next year? Will FMA be a good choice?
Chip

[Guest]

Chip, given your original question, I kind of thought that's where you were coming from.

FMA is a wonderful art and a wonderful study, and don't get me wrong those who are very proficient in it would stand up to anyone when it comes down to real world combat. With weapons and without is it very potent, when you are very proficient in it, which in my opinion takes a long time.

So do I consider it a route one approach for simple, effective and efficient training for self protection in a short period of time? No. That doesn't mean its not good, it just means there are methods which will fit your needs a lot better, a lot faster.

Drop me a PM if you want to chat more, conscious I have had more than my fair say.

Thanks

MW

[William]

I'm talking about warfare and history only as it relates to combat readiness in a system that has been tested up into the near past. In that sense most of the filipino systems haven't been watered down much in the ensuing years. Today, the urban battle field is as close as most people will get to the battles of the past but many of the principles still apply. I'm not trying to "rationalize" anything. Facts are facts.

The OP asked if they were "designed to be learned quickly due to their combat oriented background." I say they are and sited the history as part of that reasoning. By no means do I infer that someone can learn to be an instructor/BB/or whatever ranking or levels you (or anyone else) have in a system in a short period of time. Nor that they can learn all the nuances and variations of a system in a year or two. What I am saying is that a student can learn to develop a solid combative structure to build upon in a relatively short period, especially compared to many other martial arts. That's the beauty of the Filipino Martial Systems.


Of course there are fine motor skills involved in the FMA's, but they are built upon gross motor movement. IMHO, footwork, power generation, striking mechanics, and the combining of them are the foundation. Everything builds off of that. If you don't have the ability to move, counter, and hit with power from any angle, then you don't have much of anything. I can and I have trained people with average athletic ability in the foundation of our system and within three to six months of regular training and sparring develop a formidable combative structure (again, as compared to many other martial arts). That is as long as they put the hours and sweat into it. Of course that's not the end of their training. There is much more to learn. But with the hours put in, they can develop a solid combative structure to use and build upon.



William

[Clubber Lang]

As teachers we need to honestly answer the question in front of us, not try to retrofit a rationale just to uphold someone else's belief system. He asked if the Filipino martial arts could be learned quickly to an effective combative degree, to which my answer is still no.

The vast majority of FMA is based on fine motor skills which you are taught to absorb over a lengthy period of time via an inordinate volume of drills and patterns, compounded by an endless indulgence of variation. That does not meet my understanding of efficient, accelerated learning.

How refreshing it is to hear an instructor stand back from his own art and honestly assess it's merits in a given situation.

I studied Kali for years, and also spent years trying to adopt it into the methods I was trying to work in practical situations. The conclusion I drew is that I just wasn't good enough at it, and bearing in mind I'm not a bad martial artist or fighter, that seems to support Michael Wright's point.

Its not that its a bad art, its just that I couldn't wait around for it to suddenly click when people were trying to take my head off. So I went to study arts that cut the shit and got to the point. Kali maybe does that, but not in the time I spent doing it, which I think answers the guy's question.

[chillaplata]

This is a great thread.

A question for Sifu Wright and Clubber: if not FMA, what weapons-based arts would you recommend to someone seeking to achieve reasonable combat proficiency (obviously not mastery) in a short time (say 6 months)? A combatives/CQB system? If so, which one?

[Clubber Lang]

For me, there isn't one system, just be a smart consumer and take the best from what is on offer. If you want to get results fast, then go straight to people who offer exactly what you are looking for. Its 2009, gone are the days when you have to wait around in an art for a few years hoping that its all going to fall into place one day.

If you are talking weapons then for me its handguns. In the world we live in right now, its your strongest option, so why would you not start there? Get on the range.

I never really got all the stick drills, and that might just be me. But when it came to it, I just picked up something hard and heavy and hit them with it, seemed to work fine.

Knife defence is important, and although Kali is famed for it, I found the approach (of my teachers anyway) to be very convoluted. I went to an ISR/STAB program taught at the Straight Blast Gym, and it was superb. From minute one everything is done from movement and pressure, with an opponent who is really trying to catch you. No disarms, no energy drills, just very good knife defence.

In terms of empty hand I have posted on this before and I know some people disagree. I found pretty much everything I needed in Muay Thai, Boxing and some basic grappling. My first Boxing class I was in the ring sparring, so from day one I was learning what did and didn't work for me, and it was done under pressure against a resisting opponent. Thats how you get good fast.

Finally, if self defence really is that important to you, and you spend a lot of your time thinking about whether what you have is going to work for you, then why not get in the game and test it? Go work on the door of a bar for a while, take a security job, be a cop, join the forces. If you're spending so much of your time worrying about it, you may as well get paid to do it.

[Clubber Lang]

sorry, double post

[William]

I certainly agree with you on the firearms training and Muay Thai. Frankly, I would rather see a new student initially train MT to build their open hand skills. I personally like how the two work together.

Since the OP was asking the question in an FMA forum I restricted my answer to that. An untrained person with a knife and intent can be extremely dangerous. An untrained person with an impact weapon can also be very dangerous. A person with say 6 months of solid basics should be able to have a good base in which to defend themselves with and edged or impact weapon. There are no certainties. All you can do is train to better your percentages of successfully countering an attack. Period.

To clarify my point, I was talking about basic striking angles...tight X (hourglass) = forehand, backhand, & upward diagonals, thrusts, punyo strikes, power generation, and movement. Basic power striking and cutting angles. I'm not talking about mastering the nuances of flow drills, Floretes, abanicos, multitudes of disarms etc... That's not to say that we won't work in other factors, but in the beginning it's basic meat and potatoes. This can develop a solid foundation to fight from and build upon.

If you were to go back and look through my previous posts, you'll see I'm an advocate of always working against actively resisting opponents with weapons and open hand dynamics. No person 1 thrust and freezes, person 2 works his technique. I was more active here in the early days when this place was hopping but not so much in recent years.

To Chip: Ask as many questions as you need to publicly. This is the internet and you'll hear all kinds of suggestions and reasoning behind them. File them, but don't necessarily take anything as gospel. Keep them in mind, but do your own research and find out what works for you.



Best regards,
William

[Guest]

For me, there isn't one system, just be a smart consumer and take the best from what is on offer. If you want to get results fast, then go straight to people who offer exactly what you are looking for. Its 2009, gone are the days when you have to wait around in an art for a few years hoping that its all going to fall into place one day.

If you are talking weapons then for me its handguns. In the world we live in right now, its your strongest option, so why would you not start there? Get on the range.

I never really got all the stick drills, and that might just be me. But when it came to it, I just picked up something hard and heavy and hit them with it, seemed to work fine.

Knife defence is important, and although Kali is famed for it, I found the approach (of my teachers anyway) to be very convoluted. I went to an ISR/STAB program taught at the Straight Blast Gym, and it was superb. From minute one everything is done from movement and pressure, with an opponent who is really trying to catch you. No disarms, no energy drills, just very good knife defence.

In terms of empty hand I have posted on this before and I know some people disagree. I found pretty much everything I needed in Muay Thai, Boxing and some basic grappling. My first Boxing class I was in the ring sparring, so from day one I was learning what did and didn't work for me, and it was done under pressure against a resisting opponent. Thats how you get good fast.

Finally, if self defence really is that important to you, and you spend a lot of your time thinking about whether what you have is going to work for you, then why not get in the game and test it? Go work on the door of a bar for a while, take a security job, be a cop, join the forces. If you're spending so much of your time worrying about it, you may as well get paid to do it.

I really can't top that post.

If I may add two areas of consideration:

- If we are talking about Self Protection, then teaching concepts of awareness, avoidance, confrontational skills, and an understanding of the law are also key.

- As I'm sure you guys are aware, we have an unfortunate situation here in the UK regarding our laws. If you so much as look at a weapon, never mind use one or even think about carrying one, you're in for a stay at the gray bar hotel. Therefore a "weapons based system" is fundamentally flawed as a concept for us. Before I am taken to task on that, yes I do appreciate the correlation between weapons and empty hand. However, when speed and efficiency of learning are your goal, the correlation between empty hands and empty hands is far stronger.

Great post Clubber.

[chillaplata]

Thanks guys -- great posts!