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Single Stick, Double Stick, Long and short, Long sticks, short sticks, knife(s)-reverse or fencing grip, emoty hand, long, middle, close, offense, defense? What's the level of progression that everyone here learned? Is this the best progression that you think there is? Would you do it a little different? Why or why not? What way would you do it if you had to teach someone? Would you do it different if you had only 1 month to work with? 6 months? 1 year? A woman or a man? Is this too much for 1 thread?
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Ok, so I first learned a six count siniwalli double sticks. I pretty much was taught single sticks first, all the deflections, all the angles, etc. Actually I can say that within the first two weeks I started, I saw some empty hand, double, single, pocket stick, and I can't remember...but it was at least that. Emphasis was on the single stick though. And espada y daga. Funny, the espada y daga is what influenced my single stick work. So much to the point that my instructor told me I was doing it too much. Well, I'm hard headed, and he originally said that the live hand was very very important, so being one that does things to the extreme, I figured you can't over-develop it, right. Anyway, its not a bio...so. Double sticks have come and gone, we place focus on it for a little while, then we go back to something else. I think the whole time single stick has always been the emphasis, but there is always a secondary that we studied with it at the time. The progression I like or think to be good, a little later down in the post...if we keep it alive. -
hm.. good question chad, i've wondered this as well
me.. i learned at a class teaching jun fan concepts.. so it was a mix of thai boxing/western boxing/ wing chun/ kali/arnis/escrima/silat/ shootfighting..etc. really, too wide a base for the same beginning class in my opinion then and now.
I learned, first, what i now think of as largo mano, but dunno if that's the right term.. it was a two stick drill at long range. the right hand did a 1angle labtik, then a 2 angle labtick. the left hand did a 2angle labtik, then a 1 angle labtik.. the right: 1 angle labtick, low backhand labtick, left: 2 angle labtick, low backhand labtick right|: one angle labtik, low backhand witik, high backhand labtik the left: 2 angle labtik, low backhand witik, high backhand labtick
this was the beginning of a drill we just called "siniwalli" though i think it may have had more stuff thrown in it. it progressed on to a 4 count pattern, then heaven/earth/and standard 6 count pattern, then 5 different figure 8's with rechambering (downward, upward, flat, oblique 1 and oblique2).. then it had abanikos with rechambering (sun/moon/horizontal/vertical lines) and then redondo 8 counts (same lines as abaniko)
if it progressed farther than that, I didn't learn it.
then I learned boxflow with single stick, progressed to long and short stick, and then two handed weapon. after that, my teacher taught me what he said were the 4 basic disarms
next was hubud, first just learning to stop the attack and pass it, then working in the low strike to the belly (4 angle?)
there were a few other things we did with weapons, but only once or twice.. such as some espada y daga drills that taught us to use our dagger hand like a right cross.. tying a weapon with the long arm and then closing with a step to dispatch with the dagger..
we did some emptyhand stuff as well. some lockflow.. with escapes and finding strikes throught out the drill..
all of these were taught first statically, but quickly we were encouraged to use the proper footwork for defense/power..
we were taught in a manner (as far as progression is concerned) that kept us constantly off balance. to use bruce's terms, we were taken into the chaos with a new drill we didn't understand..and as soon as the drill started to feel like order, my instructor would add another element to keep it alive, and to keep us used to feeling somewhat uncomfortable in fighting situations. heavy emphasis on aliveness.. heavy emphasis on the fact that the drills are not fighting, simply compounded wisdom to answer questions within fighting and to drill certain concepts/reflexes into us so we could then utilize it when hit with a problem in live sparring..
in my opinion, my teacher put excellent emphasis on hard contact hand to hand fighting (he's fought in several countries, and tends to tear the avearage "kickboxer" to shreds in the ring..).. however, I felt we needed lots more stickfighting sparring. that was probably due to the fact that he['s running a class in missouri..a conservative backwards state as most things are concerned.
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Dwayne,
Yours is a progression that I think alot of people go through, even myself when I first started...but back to the contact of it all...was it correct? I mean we learned all these "drills" and defenses and strikes "<*before*>" we have even see a stick fight. Are we being fed a misleading image? I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think alot of the old men started out in full contact and gradually reached a high level of body mechanics. In other words like a baby learns to crawl, stand, balance, walk with the aid of a walker and holding on to things, and then walk, I think this is how the old men first learned. This is how my instructor learned. Now though, so many instructors are teaching the drills right away, not much contact, it's like completely skipping over the beginning. Are the drills really the basics? I would think that evasion are the basics. Of course, thats just my opinion. An opinion that is based on a background of stickfighting though. I used to think that all the deflections and the sayaws and the drills were basics, but now I totally disagree. That is pretty much where I wanted this thread to go. That type of progression. I hear the Edgar Sulite was an excellent fighter and excellent teacher, maybe some of his students could speak here? What kind of progression did he use? Or Tatang Ilustrisimo? What about Angel Cabales original students?
Yours is a progression that I think alot of people go through, even myself when I first started...but back to the contact of it all...was it correct? I mean we learned all these "drills" and defenses and strikes "<*before*>" we have even see a stick fight. Are we being fed a misleading image? I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think alot of the old men started out in full contact and gradually reached a high level of body mechanics. In other words like a baby learns to crawl, stand, balance, walk with the aid of a walker and holding on to things, and then walk, I think this is how the old men first learned. This is how my instructor learned. Now though, so many instructors are teaching the drills right away, not much contact, it's like completely skipping over the beginning. Are the drills really the basics? I would think that evasion are the basics. Of course, thats just my opinion. An opinion that is based on a background of stickfighting though. I used to think that all the deflections and the sayaws and the drills were basics, but now I totally disagree. That is pretty much where I wanted this thread to go. That type of progression. I hear the Edgar Sulite was an excellent fighter and excellent teacher, maybe some of his students could speak here? What kind of progression did he use? Or Tatang Ilustrisimo? What about Angel Cabales original students?
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for sticksfighting, my students learn the first 6 hits (temple temple shin shin collarbone/top of head-uppercut to chin) and they get combinations of those six httings, and how to move forward for the triangle (there is no across yet only forward). they do very high reps every class. then they learn abaniko hits 1-4 (temple temple inside wrist-outside wrist) and they do combination of that with the six basic hittings. after three months i teach them the four basic blockings (some people call them the box style), and i teach them how to move their feet. then they spar but the only legal target is the forearms and the thighs and back of the calf. btw when i teach them to hit, they learn to witik (flick), hiwa (slash), and target (stiff hit). anyway after they know how to land and set up there hits, and they learn to hit in defense, i teach them to hit more places, the stomach, the ribs, the lats, the throat, the bicep/triceps, the head and the top of the head until they know how to use all 10 hits. then they moved on.
that is first two level beginner. each time they move up until i teach them all of our 22 hittings, 8 abaniko, 8 saksak, and the back of the stick. but we do it only a few at a time. and the same with each skill and style of fighting.
that is first two level beginner. each time they move up until i teach them all of our 22 hittings, 8 abaniko, 8 saksak, and the back of the stick. but we do it only a few at a time. and the same with each skill and style of fighting.
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So, thekuntawman, is that the way you learned it or is it different. I'm really interested in seeing the different ways taught and the progressions or lack of progressions of it.
BTW, if there are some styles out here non-sparring oriented to the extent some of us try to take it, could you post here as well. Even if you don't teach, what are the some ways you think you could improve?
Also, how can we systemize something without really systemizing it and having a book of how-tos and how-not-tos?
BTW, if there are some styles out here non-sparring oriented to the extent some of us try to take it, could you post here as well. Even if you don't teach, what are the some ways you think you could improve?
Also, how can we systemize something without really systemizing it and having a book of how-tos and how-not-tos?
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hm
I like the kuntawman's progression more than the one I recieved.. see, my progression really wasn't a progression. I agree with you, chad, in that the deflections and such are not the basics, but more advanced..
I also know my instructor was trying to start an FMA club in a state where TKD is the big winner. I think he was working a happy medium to hold onto students. Also, it was kind of catch-as-catch can.. in that you never knew who would show up to the "eclectic" class.. so on tues you might have some fairly advanced students, able to do all the flow drills with soft, fast energy.. then on wednesday, some tkd students who couldn't even seem to hit your stick with any proficiency.. also, their was so much class material (jun fan type class) that you never even knew what you'd be working on from class to class.. you might go for 2 months doing all stickwork.. then two weeks doing thai stuff, then one day some wing chun.. then back to sticks, and the wing chun is totally forgotten by most students when you finally returned to it.. these things really bothered me..
I think you're right, chad, sparring would be the best place to start people. If nothing else, it allows them to have a taste of what the real thing is before the static, order-driven drill is brought in..so they have some questions before the drill gives them the answers.
one thing you guys might help me with.. we didn't have the terms SakSak or Sakay in our class..and i see these alot.. can you help me with some definitions..?
I like the kuntawman's progression more than the one I recieved.. see, my progression really wasn't a progression. I agree with you, chad, in that the deflections and such are not the basics, but more advanced..
I also know my instructor was trying to start an FMA club in a state where TKD is the big winner. I think he was working a happy medium to hold onto students. Also, it was kind of catch-as-catch can.. in that you never knew who would show up to the "eclectic" class.. so on tues you might have some fairly advanced students, able to do all the flow drills with soft, fast energy.. then on wednesday, some tkd students who couldn't even seem to hit your stick with any proficiency.. also, their was so much class material (jun fan type class) that you never even knew what you'd be working on from class to class.. you might go for 2 months doing all stickwork.. then two weeks doing thai stuff, then one day some wing chun.. then back to sticks, and the wing chun is totally forgotten by most students when you finally returned to it.. these things really bothered me..
I think you're right, chad, sparring would be the best place to start people. If nothing else, it allows them to have a taste of what the real thing is before the static, order-driven drill is brought in..so they have some questions before the drill gives them the answers.
one thing you guys might help me with.. we didn't have the terms SakSak or Sakay in our class..and i see these alot.. can you help me with some definitions..?
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hi, chad
actually i learned to use my hands and feet, and to use a bolo using this method. when i learn the abaniko system (some people call it pekiti tirsia-not the system but the fighting technique of pekiti tirsia), i was taught during sparring practice. we touch our fist together and then try to trap the opponents hand and hit the opponent (who was my brother, my grandmother, or my grandfather). first he let us use regular hittings, but then he taught us the witik two hits at a time. then we learned passing with the butt. then trapping the stick, then disarmings. i think they were in that order, but that is how i teach it. the goal is to (1) become good at hitting your opponent from any angle very quickly (2) be able to "feel" your opponent next move (3) be able to control the opponet weapons while you are distracting him with another move and (4) know when to disarms the opponent, like when his grip loosens or he is about to move his stick.
most of the stick fighting in my system was the abaniko style until i went to the philippines in 1988 when i met ernesto and roberto presas. they introduce me to NARAPHIL sparring, and i fell in love with stick fighting ever since. when i came home in 1990, i adapted the stick fighting i learn to what we do, and i came up with the teaching method that i put up at the other post. it was my papa's method, i just change it to meet what i am now teaching. it works, because my boys are pretty good stick fighting. they are not afraid of the stick, because we dont use gear, and they respect the power of the stick, they will not let you hit their head, collarbones, or wrist or shins. but you know, what the dog brothers have made for themself, many schools in the are doing already for a long time.
oh, quietanswer, saksakin is to stab or thrust. many people use "sak sak" to name their knife styles. a sak sak can also be a hook or uppercut with the tip of the stick. or you can say sungkit.
actually i learned to use my hands and feet, and to use a bolo using this method. when i learn the abaniko system (some people call it pekiti tirsia-not the system but the fighting technique of pekiti tirsia), i was taught during sparring practice. we touch our fist together and then try to trap the opponents hand and hit the opponent (who was my brother, my grandmother, or my grandfather). first he let us use regular hittings, but then he taught us the witik two hits at a time. then we learned passing with the butt. then trapping the stick, then disarmings. i think they were in that order, but that is how i teach it. the goal is to (1) become good at hitting your opponent from any angle very quickly (2) be able to "feel" your opponent next move (3) be able to control the opponet weapons while you are distracting him with another move and (4) know when to disarms the opponent, like when his grip loosens or he is about to move his stick.
most of the stick fighting in my system was the abaniko style until i went to the philippines in 1988 when i met ernesto and roberto presas. they introduce me to NARAPHIL sparring, and i fell in love with stick fighting ever since. when i came home in 1990, i adapted the stick fighting i learn to what we do, and i came up with the teaching method that i put up at the other post. it was my papa's method, i just change it to meet what i am now teaching. it works, because my boys are pretty good stick fighting. they are not afraid of the stick, because we dont use gear, and they respect the power of the stick, they will not let you hit their head, collarbones, or wrist or shins. but you know, what the dog brothers have made for themself, many schools in the are doing already for a long time.
oh, quietanswer, saksakin is to stab or thrust. many people use "sak sak" to name their knife styles. a sak sak can also be a hook or uppercut with the tip of the stick. or you can say sungkit.
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hm
kuntawman,
you say your brothers, grandmother or grandfather trained with you.. Are you originally from the philipines, or an area of south east asia?
kuntawman,
you say your brothers, grandmother or grandfather trained with you.. Are you originally from the philipines, or an area of south east asia?
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yes i am from the philippines.
i learned from my grandfather along side my sister and brother. my grandmother was not a martial artist, but she knows how to play the sticks. you know, she was around it for 50 years, my mom knows how to play the sticks too.
i learned from my grandfather along side my sister and brother. my grandmother was not a martial artist, but she knows how to play the sticks. you know, she was around it for 50 years, my mom knows how to play the sticks too.
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wow.
I think it would be really cool to have my family teach me what I am working to learn. That must foster a closeness amongst the members. That sounds special.
Thanks for the definitions, by the way..
I think it would be really cool to have my family teach me what I am working to learn. That must foster a closeness amongst the members. That sounds special.
Thanks for the definitions, by the way..
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Well, here is the basic set up of how I see a new student, with or without FMA experience getting ready to spar. It shouldn't take that long. Anything else comes after these basics. It'll probably change in the future.
1. Diagnol shots to the temple or collarbone from both sides as jab or follow through and how to step back smash the hand with a)force meeting force with open or close chamber, b) following the force with open or close chamber, c)redondo from either side.
2. Power shots. 2 horizontal head level, 2 diaganol hand level.
3. Moving in for horizontal leg shot from both side and principles of stepping back to smash hand with a)follow though, b)jab(as abanico type or blade facing target type), and c) redondo ether side.
With numbers 1 and 3, the person learns the same principles that can be utilized on high or low attacks.
4. Closing the gap against the head level strikes from both sides. This is practiced with the use of gear and drills in where one person must enter.
5. Clinching: Disarms, throwing your stick and taking the opponents, and control trapping.
6. 10 Strike sub-system (one of the few "technical" sets that I actually use to teach, however it is used to teach principles, not techniques.
There's alot more, but I think with these basics, I can produce someone ready to fight. Numbers 1, 3, and 4 are done with hockey gloves and hard fencing mask on. Number 4 works 5 specific closing "techniques" that are familiar to most FMA students, but emphasis is placed on closing the gap on someone swinging a stick at you hard. THey would start out for example with what is commonly known as a number 3 siniwalli drill, high forehand follow though, low backhand retract, and high bckhand follow through, with one stick only. Once the basics are understood, the ranges are taught to be "linked" with a combination of number 1 and number 4.
Number 2 is done by yourself. Number 5 is done with no gear but progressive resistance is used, strikes are pulled and saved for the real thing. Number 5 later becomes a part of the drills with number 4. Number 6 is the teaching of principles so that they student may understand "advanced" striking and combinations without actually "teaching it to them, because by understanding the principles they get the chance to teach themselves. Like I said there are alot more, but if I gave all of my secrets away...it wouldn't be secrets, would it?
There are definite steps 7, 8, and 9 in my head, but this is just an example of the training progression I see.
[Edited by Chad W. Getz on 11-22-2000 at 05:17 PM]
1. Diagnol shots to the temple or collarbone from both sides as jab or follow through and how to step back smash the hand with a)force meeting force with open or close chamber, b) following the force with open or close chamber, c)redondo from either side.
2. Power shots. 2 horizontal head level, 2 diaganol hand level.
3. Moving in for horizontal leg shot from both side and principles of stepping back to smash hand with a)follow though, b)jab(as abanico type or blade facing target type), and c) redondo ether side.
With numbers 1 and 3, the person learns the same principles that can be utilized on high or low attacks.
4. Closing the gap against the head level strikes from both sides. This is practiced with the use of gear and drills in where one person must enter.
5. Clinching: Disarms, throwing your stick and taking the opponents, and control trapping.
6. 10 Strike sub-system (one of the few "technical" sets that I actually use to teach, however it is used to teach principles, not techniques.
There's alot more, but I think with these basics, I can produce someone ready to fight. Numbers 1, 3, and 4 are done with hockey gloves and hard fencing mask on. Number 4 works 5 specific closing "techniques" that are familiar to most FMA students, but emphasis is placed on closing the gap on someone swinging a stick at you hard. THey would start out for example with what is commonly known as a number 3 siniwalli drill, high forehand follow though, low backhand retract, and high bckhand follow through, with one stick only. Once the basics are understood, the ranges are taught to be "linked" with a combination of number 1 and number 4.
Number 2 is done by yourself. Number 5 is done with no gear but progressive resistance is used, strikes are pulled and saved for the real thing. Number 5 later becomes a part of the drills with number 4. Number 6 is the teaching of principles so that they student may understand "advanced" striking and combinations without actually "teaching it to them, because by understanding the principles they get the chance to teach themselves. Like I said there are alot more, but if I gave all of my secrets away...it wouldn't be secrets, would it?
There are definite steps 7, 8, and 9 in my head, but this is just an example of the training progression I see.[Edited by Chad W. Getz on 11-22-2000 at 05:17 PM]
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