How can I get people to fight with me?

[stick77]

I mean that in the most respectful way, of course. This is in regards to a post that I read with kuntawman, William, and sumbrada about the state of FMA in USA.

I've gone to other schools and introduced myself, brought pictures and video of how we fight, with explanations that we allow new guys to really gear up with what they need, and we get shunned.

Full Contact Stickfighting, I've been told, is detrimental and barbaric and not a good way to promote our Pilipino culture. Myself, I think that is an absurd statement, as all of the "heroes" that we FMAist worship actually FOUGHT in real matches. Why teach these men as heroes if one should not at least try to duplicate his training methods as close as possible?

Anyway, I'm not judging the man that chooses not to spar. What does get me though, is when people that do not spar or up the contact, talk @#$% about those that do spar/fight. I say fight, because even though we are sparring, we do bring the anything goes into our mat, as far as the Hawaii guys go. I do know that the Dog Brothers also do anything goes, hence where we were inspired to up the contact.

The whole point was, how do you approach another "school" and politley ask them if any of their students are interested in having a get tgether at the local park? I can't tell you the looks of insanity that people give me when I ask them if they'd like to try their art a la DB rules. I really am a nice guy. I don't try to force my "style" or "training" on anyone, though I like to present it, explain why I train it thsi way, and I am open to trying what anyone does as well, as well as to hear why it is trained that way. I will debate if I think it can be upgraded or not, but if we don't have healthy debate, than we don't learn.

Keep Swinging,

Chad W. Getz
Stickfighting Hawaii

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stickfighting

Oh, yeah...about the dbate part. There is only 1 way to really answer a debate about something working or not. Which is why real stickfighters of the old days didn't talk much, unless they believed. With respect...

[Hakoko]

Aloha bruddah Chad,

I was curious if you have ever looked up a Ralph Sisneros on Oahu. I've heard that he likes when his boys play with other schools. Maybe some of those boys will play with you folks.

A hui hou...Hakoko

[William]

I've gone to other schools and introduced myself, brought pictures and video of how we fight, with explanations that we allow new guys to really gear up with what they need, and we get shunned. Full Contact Stickfighting, I've been told, is detrimental and barbaric and not a good way to promote our Pilipino culture.

That's one of the hardest parts of training realistically, getting others to do it with you. I've gotten those same looks. The other part is that when you work knife and they make the connection as to what you are really training to do with it...then they suddenly disappear.

Usually those type of responses fall into two categories:

1.) I really have no confidence in what I do but it looks good to swing this way. And, I'll try to make you look bad by saying it's barbaric and I'm above that...I'm too civilized. Or in other words, I don't want to put it on the line and risk having my beliefs shattered. The Risk out weighs the benefit.

or

2.) What I do is too deadly to put into action. Then see the last two sentences of category one.

IMHO, you're going about it in the right way. Basically just keep doing what your doing with the understanding that you won't get too many takers. Unless of course, you start watering it down and make it non-contact. Then you'll probably get allot more responses.

Keep swinging Chad!!

William

PS: There is a sub category to #1, it's called;"I don't want to get hurt because I have to go to work on Monday morning".

[Joel Huncar]

Hello I was reading the above posts and I have to give my opinion. I am a family man and a martial arts instructor and I have to say that the above comment about people who don't spar hard "because they have to work on monday"really bothered me. I can't belive someone could say that is the same as people who are "too insecure" in their abilities to go DB rules sparring.

I have watched one of my students be put in a situation where he could potentially have lost his business because of a dislocated knee. Fortunately he had real toughness and went out to his worksites and worked his job 12 hours a day. Another of my students is a doctor and cannot afford an injury because there are too many people depending on him. Both of these people are very secure both in their martial arts and themselves as people.

I am not trying to start a war of words here but I have to respond to these kinds of statements. I too like to do "real contact" stick fighting occasionally. Nothing clears the mind like the pain of a stick on unprotected skin. I find I move better and work better when I spar bare stick. It is a great way to clear the cobwebs and it is also an excellent way to keep respectful of the stick(OUCH!!).

That being said I have to add that no one is really doing "Real Contact" stick fighting. If you really wanted to do real stickfighting loose the fencing masks and hand protection and use a kamagong stick. What they are doing is pushing it to the limits of safety, what I mean it is as realistic as you can get and still remain safe.

How long would a "real contact" stick fight really last? How many "Real Contact" strikes to the hands can you take with a dense hardwood stick on a bare hand or in the skull? One of my peers once broke one of his students forarms through the Lameco Escrima arm guard. He felt terrible but they both accepted the dangers of the way they were playing, but if that same student was a single income dad without insurance where would he and his family be the next day?

I am not saying that "real contact" stick fighting should not be done. I hope most FMA practitioners will at least try it to feel the difference it brings to their game. All I am saying is that this is not a training option for everyone and those who can't or shouldn't do it should not be put down. After all it is our job as martial arts instructors to protect our students as well as teach them.

Just my opinion.
Joel Huncar.

[William]

I have to say that the above comment about people who don't spar hard "because they have to work on monday"really bothered me. I can't belive someone could say that is the same as people who are "too insecure" in their abilities to go DB rules sparring.

Well, you've got a point there. I can admit that I sometimes get a bit worked up about it. But in all honesty, I have heard it used by lots of folks over the years as an excuse to not have to spar (at any level). As you said, some folks professions could be jeprodized if they got hurt. I can understand that. Heck, I'm a graphic artist/artisan, I don't want to get hurt either. But, I do it anyway. I encourage students to try it out. If they like it, great. If they don't, I'll find a level that they are comfortable with. I won't water down the art, but I'll work to get them comfortable with it.

That being said I have to add that no one is really doing "Real Contact" stick fighting. If you really wanted to do real stickfighting loose the fencing masks and hand protection and use a kamagong stick. What they are doing is pushing it to the limits of safety, what I mean it is as realistic as you can get and still remain safe.

With all due respect, that's quite understood.


I too like to do "real contact" stick fighting occasionally. Nothing clears the mind like the pain of a stick on unprotected skin. I find I move better and work better when I spar bare stick. It is a great way to clear the cobwebs and it is also an excellent way to keep respectful of the stick(OUCH!!).

And that was the point. Too many people get into the mode of thinking that doing Siniwalli drills and flow drills is how it's going to be in a weapon confrontation. If you haven't gotten a taste of Full contact, Full power sparring/fighting, how will you know if you can hold up? How will you know If your tools are workable?

One of my peers once broke one of his students forarms through the Lameco Escrima arm guard. He felt terrible but they both accepted the dangers of the way they were playing, but if that same student was a single income dad without insurance where would he and his family be the next day?

Well, I hate to say it, but this is a weapon oriented art. As such, the risk of injury is always present. Hands get hit, knuckles split, bones broken or bruised. Other students with no control. That's not even counting the sparring aspect. The goal is to train as safe as possible. But it's risky. Period. If you can't risk getting hurt, you might want to try something else.

All I am saying is that this is not a training option for everyone and those who can't or shouldn't do it should not be put down.

Agreed, but I was gearing it toward the ones who use it as an excuse to never try anything. Not those folks with legitimate issues. But I understand how it can be seen as you see it.


After all it is our job as martial arts instructors to protect our students as well as teach them.

Again, I agree. It's also our job to push them beyond the barriers that they create. Push them beyond the limits of what they thought they could do (as safely, but also as realistically as possible). In doing so, you will get all kinds of excuses as to why they can or can't do something. If you've gotten to know the person, you'll have a good idea if it's a legit excuse or not.

William

[Joel Huncar]

Wow, I think we are both saying the same thing! I totally agree with the fact that lots of people just want to bang sticks, and are scared to put it on the line. I would hate to see FMA degenerate into "Stik Bo". (promoted like Tae Bo) I now see what you were saying William, and you are totally right. There is a danger in FMA right now with people trying to make it too much of a "Yuppie" art. Get rid of the flashy acrobatics and fancy uniforms and stick to basics. Use the flow drills and Sumbrada type training for what it was intended and get down and do some sparring. I would hate to see FMA become "Kerotty". No offense to people who do legitimate Karate, but look at the tournament karate circuit and you will see how far down a legitimate fighting art can go when it tries to appeal to all the masses. A lot of what you see in those circles would make a serious Okinawan Karateka sick. I will not be part of that garbage when it comes to FMA. That is probably the best thing that people like the dog brothers are doing. They are keeping it legitimate.

[thekuntawman]

chad the best way to get people to spar with you is what you are doing now, form your own group, if you are teaching them or just work out with them, and start from there. but how you met more people to add to your group is difficult, because it is sad to say it, but most FMA practicioner dont like to fight ("spar" "sport" "play" whatever). probably what would be easier is that you could join some karate tournament to fight in, and talk to the guys who are in your division. that is the #1 way i meat other martial artists. now you will have to start out sparring with them empty handed, but those are the people who will be most willing to try out stickfighting, the ones who already participate in fighting competition, than the kind of guys who enjoy videotapes and seminars.

when you visit the teacher of another school to "recruit" them, dont talk to them about YOU and sparring. this is a good way to scare him off. what you want to do is become friends with him, then one day suggest you guys get your boys and his boys together for "group workout". then you participate in the fighting yourself. maybe he will join to, or probably not. but the martial arts teacher of today is soft, so you have to come with friendlyness if you want to get together with him. i think pictures of your students sparring a lot will make him think his boys will lose in there fights.

[eXcessiveForce]

another thing to consider is Liability. Try justifying live stick fighting to a jury if someone gets hurt and decides to sue.


I can't even imagine how high the damages could go. What instructor wants to risk losing everything he owns so that some people can do the anything goes training.


Most instructors like what they have going and just can't justify the risks of letting there students do it. Doesn't mean they might not like to do it themselves.


I used to carry a 1 million dollar liability policy just in case somebody got hurt and decided to sue. But I have seen cases that have gone much higher than that.

just a thought

[ceasarx]

Hey guys I am not a true practiceing stick fighter but our head instructor is and he passed it down to his students and hence I am a third gen student who wishes he could learn more about kali and escrima . But I try to train for real with all my studies but my instructor will not let me go passed foam sticks while sparring. My brother practice kenjitsu useing bamboo bokens and no padding as well as dull metal . when we tell sensai that we want to go all out with the sticks he calls us crazy and tells to line up or practice falls.
Any way my point is if you expect to fight for real than you should train for real. but only if you can handle the risk

[stick77]

for the record

I don't have problems with people that don'twant to spar/fight. My problem is with those that don't, but DO talk @#$*. If I invite someone to fight with us, it's because I care about him and I want him to learn something. We try to foster brotherhood here more than anything else. We have a bunch of guys that can flow with anyone, but if you watch how they fight(it used to be different than how we train, but now we train like how we fight), maybe you can get an idea to how you can work your own self.

I used to train for the fight, but after so many fights, my perception is to now train while I'm fighting. In other words, I used to do all the training and wonder about how not to get hit and hold my composure(something that doesn't always stay around when a stick buzz past your head). Well now, I don't hae to think about moving my leg, or moving my hand, or moving my head, I can swing a fast powerful, respectable, strike without much telegraphing. All those things come naturally, now I work on my strategies, faking, setting up, adding in my deflections, etc., etc. Now I fight to train. After being able to pull off roof blocks and inside/outside deflections agaisnt someone that si swinging hard, moving in and out, and trying to really not let you do what you train to do, its rather easy to do it in a classroom setting for the "technical perfection" of it all. What I try to stress in training is Technique application. Can you apply what you learn against real strikes. Anyway, I kmnow alot of people don't understand what we do, because I hear alot of people say that they have stickfought or their instructors hit them hard, etc., etc. but of all the guys that have told me that, only 1 has come down and produced respectable game. Everyone else says, oh, my instructor doesn't hit us like that, or oh it's different. Than they get to walk away thinking...hmmm, I really need to work on what I am doing. Again, all the guys that are here in Hawaii and fight can back that up, we have all heard it more than once. No disrespect to those guys, because that is what we want. We want people to walk away questioning themselves. We want them to go home and think about how they can hit another person that is holding a stick and trying to hit them hard.

Whoo, where did that come from? Just putting it out there.

For the record, James, Leroy, Kalani, and myself don't use any hand protection. Baseball gloves aren't considered protection and are rather used for the grip. On that note, I have also stopped using any gloves for awhile, just to try it out. On masks, mine will bend by pushing on the screen with your hand. It is not the helmet that bloodsport sells, its a 45 year old santinelli.

I've been hit on my hand without hand protection nad only got on break on the finger. Lots of swollen hands and lumps that can still be felt(not by me, but if you feel it from the skin you can feel where I'e been hit before). Same goes for James and Leroy, and Kalani.

I've also been hit on the head without mask. Hard. I have also seen and have on video, one guy getting hit on his head 20 times without mask, not only keep going but reverse the situation and make the other guy tap.

When we fight, we don't stop if the maks comes off, we stop when the guy says stop.

Granted that what we do is not patayan-death match, but it is plenty a real contact stickfighting. Punches, kicks, chokes, elbows, anything goes until one guy says sto or 2 minutes up(but most guys ask to keep going). Oh yeah, I have fought twice without any gear, real rattan, and like I stated, plenty of guys can vouch for the thickness, density, and weight of these real rattan sticks. They are not toothpicks that we fight with.

Also, please know, that not all the guys are encouraged to fight at this point from the start. When I started, I used 2 hard knee pads, 2 hard elbow pads, a bloodsport.com fencing mask, WEKAF gloves and much shorter lighter sticks. We progressed and got better at fighting. In my eyes, it is a proven fact that real contact stickfighting will produce faster results that are useable than non conctact or pre arranged drills. Non contact and pre arranged drills might or may build some attrributes or skill at a longer rate, BUT I have seen real contact stickfighting with very little instructions beat highly trained drillmasters on nmerous occasions. Again, we have to look forthe middle ground. Like the third generation student says(and this is not against your instructor), but I feel your instructor(if he is 2nd gen) has an advantage to learn from the source. He got his water from the pond. His instructor(first gen, tight?) is the waterfall that pours into that pond. I too when I first started this path was lucky to learn from the pond. My instructor fought for real, and lost his finger to his dad. He is from Kauai, his parents from Mindanao. Still though, for myself, I wanted to experience the waerfall.

Kuntawman, that is what I am doing now. Wednesday nights I have a Training/Discussion Group open to the public or nay MAist. Tuesday I work out with this other class at the park(just started), I plan to work out with the instructor on weekends(my way work out ) Sudnays we fight, and Thursday I am fighting again also.

Peace out, keep swinging. This post is in no way meant as disrespectful to anyone, I think we are all on the same page.

BTW, our group is not a fight group where we try to get unwilling people to come so we can all take our turnsat them. I've met alot of schools that will treat an outside other MA student that way. We truly believe in no way as way. Everyone has something to offer. As long as you can make it happen on the grass.

Respectfully,

Chad W. Getz
Stickfighting Hawaii

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stickfighting

[thekuntawman]

my friends when we are talking about real philippine martial arts, we are talking about real contact martial arts. you cannot separate them. as FMA people we like to laugh and point the finger at other martial artist to say, those guys are water down and commercial martial arts. but i say if you are getting your art with no strong contact in your sparring, you better point in the mirror.

i like how chad says you take your water from the pond. what we like to brag about our teachers, is that, he fought. he takes matches and challenges. but isnt that what we do when we go to matches? if you do not get your own experience you are a theory martial artist, the one who imagines what the fight is like, the one who tells stories of another man's fighting experience, the one who makes excuses why you cant fight. or you shouldnt fight.

there is only one way to test your knowledge. now are you going to be the one who KNOWs what works, or the one who FIND OUT what does not?

[ceasarx]

well put . Like I said earlier in this post . I train for real and I have had to use what I have learned as a bouncer and in self defense. I can say that swinging at a bag and swinging in the air will not prepare you for reality. Neither will haveing someone swing at you that is not going to hit you.

[stick77]

I wish I had an old man to hit me...

All the old men tell stories about how they got hit for real. Mines tells us of how he learned. They hit his hand(his uncle and dad), than strike angle 1. Hard. He said if he dropped the stick, he got hit. So his first lesson was to hold the stick. Than they tell him to hit at them, they do their defense, than swing at him and see if he can do it.

This was the stick training. He also tells us of how the abused him and tortured him as a child. He hated his dad because he didn't want to be "trained". His dad told him to beat him than they can stop training. Took him 11 years and help from the oldest(of the 3) uncles(his dad's sparring partner).

Anyway, any of us can get this type of training to some degree if you put the stick in a beginners hand and tell him to hit at you hard. We can also take advantage of our protective equipment that we have now a days. Put on a mask and hockey gloves and practice what you know against real strikes. You get hit, you learn fast. Evolution happens when there is a need for it to happen.

In the old days, you were a bad @$$ if you had 7 full contact death matches. That was because luck often holds out for only so long(unelss you have anting anting, of course). Now days, we have the CHOICE and option of putting ourselves into similar situations, with the SAFETY of head gear. So we get to keep fighting and have hundreds of full contact matches to have as experience versus the 7 or so. Even in respect to the real bad @$$e$ that could claim a hundred full contact stickfights in the old days, with gear on, I personally got to gain experience of 100 stickfights in about two or three years(not sure when I actually hit 100~even that was a few years back though). Honestly, I take off my hockey gloves so that I can be sure that I am pushing my game and development to the furhtest that I can. When I wear hocky gloves, I don't have as much "fear factor", I notice. Without the gloves though, what is there to hide behind?
The KAHOY.

~Chad W. Getz

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stickfighting

[William]

eXcessiveForce wrote:

another thing to consider is Liability. Try justifying live stick fighting to a jury if someone gets hurt and decides to sue.

I used to carry a 1 million dollar liability policy just in case somebody got hurt and decided to sue. But I have seen cases that have gone much higher than that.

Just out of curiosity, did you ever have to put that insurance to use?

William

[ryanhall]

How can you get people to fight you?

Post some flyers all over the local college campus, focusing particularly on those areas near the fraternity houses. The flyers should read: "Party at my place. Free food and beer. Female clothing optional." When you don't deliver, you will have many, many new training partners who just won't be able to wait to get into the full contact drills .