Opinions from FMA Artists

[krys]

I am a hardcore FMA practitioner (although I study Wing Chun but this has nothing to do with filippino arts).

My intention is not to be offensive but:
the JKD people I saw do not practice fmas seriously.
I can't get along with people talking about "cross training" and doing some occasional "stick drilling" 2-3 hours a week to improve their empty hand skills.
They tend to study fmas in a very superficial way and live in the illusion of being able to survive an armed encounter after easy training.

It takes a lot of hard work, sweat and pain to get skilled in fmas and can be sometimes very boring, which is difficult to sell in a commercial way.

Mabuhay ang filîpino Silat at Arnis.

It is better for the bone to turn white than for the wheel,
Tausug proverb.

[danjuandesiga]

How do practitioner's in PI fell towards the Dog Brothers?

I'm not in the PI, but I have grown up there where I have begun my training in FMA.

How I feel about the Dog Bros?

Hell yeah! I love em!

I am not all about being partisan to my fellow Flips just because Eric "Top Dog" Knaus and Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny, and the rest of the pack had actually managed to beat up a few Flips who were reknowned experts in their own native fighting style. (this is in reference to one match of Top Dog handing some other Filipino native's @$$ back to him with his sticks against the other guy's tapado as seen in "Stick vs. other weapons" tape from the Real Contact stickfighting series.)

In fact, I loved the hell out of it!

I give them more than just my respect because of their enthusiasm of the practice and their belief in the FMA style.

AND BECAUSE they are not Filipino, it does not give the other "hardcore" of Flips practicing FMA any room to talk the way they do because of their prejudice against someone (that is not Filipino) else better than they on their own grounds even!

Even though Kali/Escrima/Arnis is from the PI, it does not mean that anyone that is not a Flip is not any good at it. Same can be said of other styles of other different countries.

Rock on with your stick on!

Dan Juan de Siga

[danjuandesiga]

[QUOTE=krys]I am a hardcore FMA practitioner (although I study Wing Chun but this has nothing to do with filippino arts).

[My intention is not to be offensive but:
the JKD people I saw do not practice fmas seriously.
I can't get along with people talking about "cross training" and doing some occasional "stick drilling" 2-3 hours a week to improve their empty hand skills.
They tend to study fmas in a very superficial way and live in the illusion of being able to survive an armed encounter after easy training.

It takes a lot of hard work, sweat and pain to get skilled in fmas and can be sometimes very boring, which is difficult to sell in a commercial way.]

-So are you saying that you don't think a JKD Concepts practitioner can't hang with the big boys in FMA?
Don't forget who is at the apex of this JKD/FMA thing. That being Guro Dan Inosanto whose authority on FMA stands beyond question.

Just because you were "bored" in your training, it does not mean that training can't be enjoyed.

Believe it or not, there are some that actually love the hard work it takes to be good at FMA. Look at the Dog Bros. Those guys are awesome!

Especially a JKDC/FMA cross-training freak like yours truly.

rock on my friend,

Dan Juan de Siga
"Rock on with your stick on"

[krys]

-So are you saying that you don't think a JKD Concepts practitioner can't hang with the big boys in FMA?

Don't forget who is at the apex of this JKD/FMA thing.[/QUOTE]

Read what said, yes the dog brothers do good stuff. Those JKD-fmas I met were definitely not doing good. Kept on practicing drills....I don't like drills and don't practice them, one fight can teach more than years of drilling.

Just because you were "bored" in your training, it does not mean that training can't be enjoyed.

Being enjoyed or bored during training is irrelevant....

Don't forget who is at the apex of this JKD/FMA thing. That being Guro Dan Inosanto whose authority on FMA stands beyond question.

At the apex of what? FMAs or Innosanto Kali?
You mean Dan Innosanto is the foremost authority on FMAs? .

[danjuandesiga]

Don't forget who is at the apex of this JKD/FMA thing.

[Read what said, yes the dog brothers do good stuff. Those JKD-fmas I met were definitely not doing good. Kept on practicing drills....I don't like drills and don't practice them, one fight can teach more than years of drilling.]

-right on, that's cool.. after all it is personal preference that does matter over all, you train how you believe, and I can dig that. As do I.... don't forget though, a lot of those guys of the Dog Bros. ARE of Inosanto/JKDC stock.


[Being enjoyed or bored during training is irrelevant.... ]

-understood my friend. Maybe it's just me, but I never have gotten bored during training. I love every moment of it, buddy.



[At the apex of what? FMAs or Innosanto Kali?
You mean Dan Innosanto is the foremost authority on FMAs? ]

NO man, I did not say that. Note carefully that I put "JKDC/FMA" and that Guro Dan Inosanto is definitely one of them that is definitely legit as an authority of FMA. the "apex" at the JKDC/FMA schools of thought.

[bushidoseishin]

More Separations

There are more separations to the FMA than just JKD people and pure FMA people. I am speaking about Vee Arnis Jitsu and to some degree the other arts in the Vee family.

The training is based on the Filipino concepts such as the stepping and striking found in your traditional FMA, but has taken it to a level that is purely street orientated. By that I mean incorporating the Jujitsu and Thai boxing to keep it from being limited to a single style. This turns it into a concept based system of martial arts that works for a smaller person against a larger attacker.

So there are more distinctions for the FMA than just the two listed.

[danjuandesiga]

There are more separations to the FMA than just JKD people and pure FMA people. I am speaking about Vee Arnis Jitsu and to some degree the other arts in the Vee family.

The training is based on the Filipino concepts such as the stepping and striking found in your traditional FMA, but has taken it to a level that is purely street orientated. By that I mean incorporating the Jujitsu and Thai boxing to keep it from being limited to a single style. This turns it into a concept based system of martial arts that works for a smaller person against a larger attacker.

So there are more distinctions for the FMA than just the two listed.

-SWEET!
I agree with the distinctions as I wholly accept any change and modification of a fighting method/style/doctrine that goes along with the purpose for the INDIVIDUAL to take the style to fit accordingly to his NATURAL function as an Individual. Not to fit the style(or anyone else's approval wether your are doing the 'real' style or not).

I personally don't give a rat's ass about where it comes from or who is 'real' with it. I really only care with the 'OUTLOOK' that says "If it WORKS-USE IT".
AND this is how I get REAL with it.

Rock on with your stick on!
Dan Juan de Siga

[krys]

but has taken it to a level that is purely street orientated.

Traditional fmas are all street oriented.... and were battle tested. Some fmas don't teach empty hands but it isn't difficult to find a weapon to protect yourself, even a ballpen will do the job...
[/QUOTE] This turns it into a concept based system of martial arts that works for a smaller person against a larger attacker. [/QUOTE]
Many of the GMs were very small, I don't see why traditional fmas wouldn't work for small peoples against big ones. Size doesn't make much difference when it comes to weapons, chances are smaller fighters may be faster than very big ones......

[sikal]

I get the impression that there are two types of people that practice FMAs:

1. Ones that train solely in the FMA/Kali/Escrima under a FMA instructor.

2. JKD Concepts people, under the Inosanto lineage. They will train in JKD Concepts, and possibly also Sifu Inosanto's blend of FMA within the curriculum. Using the philosophy of JKD, the FMAs are then blended into your overall skills

I fall into category 2. What do the "hardcore" students of the FMAs (such as the people that train and study in the Phillipines) feel about the JKD people that dabble in FMAs? Do you think they've missed the point or overseen anything?

Well, I'd say that I'm actually not quite in either group. I'm not a JKD guy but I don't train solely in FMA. About 90% of my core is split between FMA and IMA (Indonesian martial arts), though, so I've had a lot more FMA exposure than most JKD guys who dabble in FMA. The core of my FMA training, though, is from the Lacoste/Inosanto blend.

I had an interesting conversation about this once with a guy. He asked what FMA I did and I told him that the core of it was Lacoste/Inosanto. He said, "Yeah, I started with the Inosanto stuff but it didn't have enough depth for me." (He now trains in another FMA system)

I shrugged. "Each to their own. But I've never found it lacking in depth."

A few hours later, we were working out together and discussing knife work. I did something and he said, "Hey, that's nice - is that some of Uncle Bill's knife work?" (we were at one of the annual "Uncle Bill's Family Gatherings" with Bapak Willem "Uncle Bill" de Thouars). I said, "No. Uncle does something similar" and I illustrated the similarities. "But what I initially did was straight from Lacoste/Inosanto."

He said, "Wow. I've never seen an Inosanto blend guy with that kind of depth."

I said, "Well, something you have to remember is that the majority of people in the Inosanto circle are JKD guys who do some FMA. They get some FMA training at seminars and whatever but their main focus is JKD. There's a world of difference [in depth of FMA understanding] between a JKD guy who dabbles in FMA and an FMA guy."

I have no qualms either way, though. Everyone's path is different. What works for one may or may not work for another.

The only time I have any issues with the topic is when a JKD guy who dabbles in FMA thinks he really has a lot of depth in FMA or tries to say that FMA is lacking something just because he hasn't seen it in the FMA he's been exposed to. But I have that problem with anyone from any system talking out the back of their head

Mike

[DJColdfusion]

Alright, I am a JKD guy who admittedly "dabbles" in FMA . . . even though I would rather do more than dabble. I work FMA as often and as hard as opportunity affords. However, I do know several excellent FMA guys and the Inosanto/Lacosta guys are always some of the best. I have been equally impressed with the Pekiti Tersia guys and the Sayoc practicioners that I have worked with. There have been others, but the point is that there are many, many flavors in FMA. Each "flavor" brings something different to the table. Each "flavor" has its own unique qualities that make studying it appealing.

While I have never had the opportunity to delve into the depths of FMA for any long period of time, I have to say that just because I study JKD doesn't mean that I don't respect FMA and it SURE doesn't mean that I don't study FMA as often and as hard as I possibly can.

And when it comes to the depth of Dan Inosanto's knowledge of FMA, the man can take you as deep as you want to go. The only question is, Do you want the red pill or the blue pill?

[danjuandesiga]

Oh, by the way... I AM (originally) a FMA guy that is of the Inosanto lineage that dabbles in JKD.

I admire the hell out of the GM Lema Lightning/Kidlat style, and most especially love the Pekiti Tirsia method, as Iluustrisimo, Inosanto, Lacoste, and so on... Knowing there are so many DIFFERENT ANGLES to practice FMA and find it all BEAUTIFUL.

I dabble in JKD as a useful aid in improving my Kali. Simply to fight better.

Rock on with your stick on
Dan Juan de Siga

MSDA represent!

[RapidAssault16]

Well, I've trained in the JKD/FMA mix here in the US and I've also trained in Manila under FMA instructors. I do find that both groups have their pros and cons.

From my experience, the JKD/FMA mix here in the US, although good, is way too pattern-drill based. I don't wanna generalize, because I do know a lot of JKD/FMA ppl who aren't THAT drill-based, as they spar regularly with weapons and all. However, in my experience, a lot of my FMA training while in the USA has consisted of Numerado, Sumbrada, Lockflows, Panantukan, Hubad, and Sinawali. A lotta knife sparring too. When I first trained in Manila, I recall asking one of my fellow students to try knife sparring, with gloves and rubber knives, for a bit. He asked, "So what is this stuff?" I went, "Hey, its FMA of course!" He was puzzled. He never saw it before. I then asked him to do Sumbrada, Numerado, and Hubad with me and he was totally shocked...as he never heard of or even saw any of these things before. Now, this was a guy who was doing FMAs in Manila for a good 2 years and he had never heard of any of the drills that we cherish so much in the USA. I even asked the Guro about this stuff and he was just as surprised. Although he had heard of some of the drills by name, he never saw them in action.

From what I've seen, many Guros in Manila do not like the JKD/FMA mix that is so prevalent in the US. I recall handing my Guro a copy of BlackBelt Magazine, with an advertisement of a set of Kali Videos. He just frowned and winced...he said it wasn't the real thing. You see, in JKD circles, FMAs are mainly used as a supplement to one's empty hand skills. They are mainly present in JKD training in order to develop attributes such as coordination, footwork, speed, etc. However, in pure FMAs, the art is a fighting art in and of itself...not just as a supplement to one's empty hands.

I believe this is why in Manila, I didn't see too many drills that developed attributes in order to develop empty hand skills. Rather, they saw the FMAs as fighting arts, in and of themselves. The FMAs, as trained in Manila nowadays, are used for mainly 2 purposes: Survival or Sport. Although there were some drills present (sinawali and Espada y daga were the most common), about 85 percent of the training was centered around technical refinement, sparring, and power training (hitting tire dummies, etc.), as well as self-preservation in mind during the training. In regards to empty hands, a lot of the techniques involved locking and throwing, found in Cadena De Mano and some points of Dumog. Terms like Panantukan are very rarely heard in the Philippines. To be honest, I don't think I've ever seen any REAL emphasis on empty hand tactics while in Manila. 98 percent of the training was with weapons.

[Keeper]

original post

Hey nice posts guys.

But going back to the original post.... there is actually a third catergory. You've got the hardcore traditionalists, the JKD mix guys, and then you have the smaller group of military-based close quarter combat guys - ie Hock Hochheim and his Pacific Archipelago Combatives. His stick and knife stuff mainly comes from his intense study of FMA out in the Philippines with my GM, Ernesto Presas and in the states with Remy Presas.
The way he mixes his FMA and Silat with military 'dirty tricks' and CQB stuff actually brings you closer to 'real fma' (in my opinion) as it is more 'to-the-point', less art and more fight.

It was great to study traditional-type stuff out in the Philippines, but since I got more involved with the military/street blend back here in England I actually feel like more of an FMA guy.

And as for the question about the JKD guys... good luck to them. They may not have the skill and insight like the hardcore FMA guys do, but at the end of the day if they had to pick up a stick to defend themselves they'd have a better chance of survival than if they had no FMA experience at all. And isn't that what it's all about??

And what do they think about the Dog Brothers in the Philippines? Well when I asked the same thing, it would seem that most of the guys in Manila kombatan didn't like them too much. But that's just them, not all PI FMA guys.
Personally, I like the philosophy of what they do. I just don't dig the point system of their tournamants. And if a bunch of aggresive guys want to put on helmets and beat the shit out of eachother with sticks, i hope they have fun.... as long as they don't claim to be FMA guys. The top Dogs are cool, they have heart and technique, but these red-necks that turn up just to smash into another guy with a stick with no training - they're just bums.
But over all, going full contact IS the only way to test technique, that's why I did it.

Peace

Keeper

[krys]

In the Philippines we see it that way: traditional fmas and modern fmas.

[thekuntawman]

any art that has a root in the filipino art, and calls itslef a "filipino art" is a filipino art, and gets respect as one in my opinion. i consider "jkd/kali" a filipino art in disguise, since many of the people use arnis/kali so much, but they idolize bruce lee to keep him at the center of the style, so its a "chinese", with some filipino added. i like a little bit of what jkd/kali did for the arts of the philippines, which is get our arts noticed and respect. what i dont like, is that it has produced so many wimps and fake warriors who call themself, filipino style. the filipino arts was reduced to add-on art, a supplement to any style, not complete, but our weapons can complete your system. they cheapened the title of "arnisador/eskrimador" to be someone who knows a bunch of drills and disarms, and certificates. so much that we consider daniel inosanto, a man who did not fight matches or even pay his respects in the philippines, a "definitely legit as an authority of FMA." we lost the respectability of asking another fighter for a match, and the respect of judging another teacher based on his fighting ability, instead today we only look at names-dropping, seminar/video/affiliation accomplishments, popularity, articles, and of course, likeability. the filipino martial arts community is traditional to NOT be friendly and "sharing" and "blending" arts. you take your style (or two or three) and evolve it to be able to beat everyones style, not join it. a master of one who can beat many is better than certified in many, and WONT see if he can beat any. today this is the one thing i regret that is missing from the filipino arts, the competition. and i believe that is what is weakining the arts. they become collectors of certificates, techniques, drills and names. fighting skill is secondary to popularity. and yes, i blame this on the seminars/concept style of teaching, especially your danny inosanto and jkd/kali. but i am not separating just him, but remy presas and the modern arnis style of teaching, and whoever else it promoting the filipino arts as easy-to-learn-easy-to-get-certified.

on the other side, dog brothers, i originally thought they were stealing the filipino idea of using your art to see who is truly superior. but after reading there words on the net, i see they are staying true to this idea, that you walk as a warrior, not talk as one. why any filipino does not like them i dont know, either they dont really know there philosophy or maybe some of us are jealous or prejudice. actually the dog brothers, wekaf, and pitbulls are bringing back true respect to the philippine arts. a few months ago i met a certified, 10 years old arnis black belter! thank god for real fighters.

but i do not belive that jkd/kali know what is the FILIPINO fma, because they are only exposed to the water version, and many of the real teachers dont like them. i mean they are not even calling the arts by the real names and historiies.