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  • Stick Twirling

    I ask this in all seriousnesss, and don't mean any offence to yu Kali types.

    But why do you do all that fancy stick twirling? Spinning them around in thin air sure looks cool, but doesn't the balance and feel of a technique vary massively when you are actually hitting something? It just seems counter productive to me.

  • #2
    Anyone who would twirl a stick in combat deserves to drop it or have it taken away and used on them repeatedly. Nobody with half an idea of how a real fight would go down would ever suggest twirling mid-combat--it's asking for trouble. I believe that most of the twirling is for wrist flexibility and stick coordination.

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    • #3
      twirling the stick does result in wasted movement and a lack of power,
      In the arts that i study we dont do it.

      but i have ask what do you mean by twirling is it like cheerleaders twirling with the fingers???

      the lapunti method of twirling is probably the best i have seen in twirling, its not really a twirl, there stikes but to the untrained it may look like a twirl........its backhand round strikes numerous to the head followed by upper and horizontal stikes.

      (again could you explain twirling)

      thanks

      terry

      also just because you may think the method is useless you should talk badly about it until you have faced a master of it and beaten him

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      • #4
        Perhaps I should clarify. I don't mean twirling as in a cheerleader. I mean practising with drills into thin air. I've seen Kali and JKD people do all kinds of impressive looking flowing drills but wouldn't the whole feel of it be totally different if the sticks were actually hitting something?

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        • #5
          I've seen Kali and JKD people do all kinds of impressive looking flowing drills but wouldn't the whole feel of it be totally different if the sticks were actually hitting something?
          yeah man these drills are useless........ waste of time

          some FMA dont do drills at all

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          • #6
            I agree with what youre saying about twirling. But your refferring to two different things, twirls and drills. First off on the twirling, yes first and foremost your learning flexibility, and and how to manipulate your weapon, something that is very important, how to put your stick in one position, and utilizing footwork, and zoning, be able to counter another angle of attack with very little wasted motion. If you are opening any of your fingers, (cheerleader style), then you are doing it wrong. I have seen some people do this, usually those karate schools who claim to teach escrima, but dont realize the intricacies, and opt for flashy movement. However, this will result in you smacking yourself in the head as soon as you hit something solid. or even losing your stick. On a usable level, depedning on the style, you are also learning to hit two angles with speed, and power. Either, a fanning movement, as a setup, or over and under the wrist. (cabales serrada escrima). Doce pares teaches this and calls it arko. So does the twirl have merit? of course. There is many styles of stickfighting in this world, many with no outside influence from the other, and almost everyone holds twirling in esteem because it TEACHES YOU HOW TO MANIPULATE YOUR TOOL, feel comfortable with the weight etc... Also, if you miss your intended target, you can either overextend your body, and expose your head and shoulder (forehand strike) or use a slapping motion to your left forearm or bicep, and youll find the momentum of the stick will flow naturally right over in a figure eight motion, to counter his next attack. As for drills, it depends if you end up being stuck, in a drill, which unfortunately, many do. But this is common, in ANY martial art from muay thai, to boxing, to wrestling. Many end up taking the drill for an acutally technique, A drill is there to impart nerumuscluar mememory, and repetition. nothing more. I dont remember where I heard it, but someone said, use a drill to build a skill, then forget the drill. Application, fighting, and sparring, is where you should practice the usage of those drills, to see which will become your raw basic fighting combinations.

            I hope this helps.

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            • #7
              I agree with Haumana2000. Twirling drills (as opposed to techniques) should be seen for what they are - exercises designed to develop a particular attribute, be this strength, flexibility, etc. Context is everything.

              My view is that twirling drills give one the ability to know his tool and to flow, which one may or may not be able to carry over to a fight. For styles that have twirling techniques, particularly blade-oriented styles, such as Kali Illustrisimo, Atienza Kali, etc., such drills are more relevant.

              The Balintawak I practice has no amara or twirling movements. All strikes are direct but I do twirling exercises in solo training mainly for strength and flow, but partly to understand the movements which enhances my ability to deal with them.

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              • #8
                hi reactor

                could you explain more about that atienza kali..... are they in the philippines?????/

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                • #9
                  Hello moromoro:

                  I'm not sure whether Atienza Kali has local practitioners but I have seen their website (www.atienzakali.com) and some of the material they have posted.

                  Their approach appears to project a strong emphasis on dealing with mass attacks apart from the usual stuff.

                  Just recently, they posted a "no-contact" sparring video of one of the Atienza's which I found interesting for the movements and chain of techniques by Mr. Atienza reminded me of the bread and butter combos used by the Philippine Army and Philippine Navy players in many live stick/full contact matches I have seen back here (bread and butter because they are effective in fast and furious full power sparring).

                  To my eyes, the body mechanics in their long bladework also have a Kali Illustrisimo flavor, or is it the other way around? (Shouldn't matter).

                  Although I'm not an expert, judging from what they put out in their website, I would say they are one of the better reps of FMA in the US.

                  Keep it real.

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                  • #10
                    I've always considered twirling to be a warm up exercise, similar to the way people stretch prior to kicking.

                    I've had a look at the Atienza Kali website posted above. Just out of curiosity, what language is that on the buttons?

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                    • #11
                      Hey, Swan104:


                      It's been a while since I took up Philippine History at UP, but I believe it's Alibata, the ancient Philippine alphabet.

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                      • #12
                        Hello

                        Swan104 - The script is "Baybayin"

                        Amarra/twirling etc, can be used effectively at the right moment in conflict. It is when a person opens his hand to do the "twirl" that the possiblity of the release of the stick occurs.
                        If you examine the upward shield (payong) parry: starting from a closed position the stick is dropped and twirled up into the parry. As well this technique naturally leads one to the "pluma", where the parry and a counter strike flow from this movement.

                        Drills are only a method to teach a reference point in training. The can help a student put in a number of repetitions necessary to ensure that the movement is ingrained into their personal fighting method. The problem becomes when a person is trapped by and in the drill, never reaching out beyond the drill to integrate it into real fighting method. This can be done in a progressive force on force method (ie sparring etc). This is the same problem that Bruce Lee wrote about in the now famous article "The Classical Mess" being trapped in a kata, form is problem many arts can suffer from.

                        Gumagalang

                        Guro Steve L.


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                        • #13
                          Hello,

                          I forgot to add this- Atienza Kali is a family system headed by the three Atienza brothers, Guro Carl, Allain and Darryl Atienza are extremely good instructors and great people as well. They are currently teaching in NY and NJ. If you have the opportunity to train with them, don't pass it up!!!

                          Gumagalang

                          Guro Steve

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Airyu
                            It is when a person opens his hand to do the "twirl" that the possiblity of the release of the stick occurs.
                            In the twirling that was taught to me, the hands do not open during the motion. This can feel unnatural and uncomfortable at first especially if wrist flexibility is poor, but eventually it becomes second nature and thus when twirling this way, the possibility of the stick being released while twirling is reduced.

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                            • #15
                              Further to the script in the Atienza Kali site, as Airyu pointed out, the correct name is Baybayin also it is more commonly known as Alibata. Check out http://www.eaglescorner.com/baybayin/

                              Below is the text in their intro page.

                              Welcome to the Baybayin Script website. If you're here looking for Alibata, the ancient Filipino script, then you've come to the right place. Though it is more commonly known as "Alibata", "Baybayin" is its proper name. The term "Alibata" was introduced in the early 1900s by Dean Paul Versoza of the University of Manila. He claims the term comes from "alif," "ba," and "ta," the first three letters of the Maguindanao arrangement of the Arabic letters. So now that we know the truth, let's use the proper term, shall we?

                              Hope this helps.

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