Stick Twirling

[Juramentado]

Originally posted by Reactor


In the twirling that was taught to me, the hands do not open during the motion. This can feel unnatural and uncomfortable at first especially if wrist flexibility is poor, but eventually it becomes second nature and thus when twirling this way, the possibility of the stick being released while twirling is reduced.

Yes, you don't open your hand. In fact, you're not suppose to. always grip the stick fully and never open your grip, even if you "twirl" the stick.

On the subject of "twirling", it's not that at all. The movement of the stick that best fits the description of "twirling" is probably doblete or, in Pekiti Tirsia, florete. It's a single strike that rotates and strikes the same target area a second time. It can also be used as a fake, making the opponent think that you're first strike is committed but you're actually setting him up for the second strike.

Arnis / Escrima / Kali is definitely a lot more complex and sophisticated than baton twirling.

[Reactor]

It appears from my comments as well as that of Juramentado that there are some FMAers who have been trained to "twirl" with their hands opening during the motion.

In the many schools and styles I've studied here in the Philippines, Ive never encountered anyone teach it that way.

In fact, I've always used this as an indicator of sorts everytime I see someone pick up a stick and twirl it. If I see that the person opens his hand when he twirls it, I immediately but silently conclude that he/she is a poseur, rightly or wrongly.

Which leads me to wonder whether this is a common thread that binds such practitioners. Hmmm ...

[Airyu]

Hello Everyone,

After seeing many FMA schools in this area, one thing I did notice was that many of them, did leave their hand pen during training as they twirled the stick. Most of these schools advertised that they taught FMA, but were mostly various "Karate" type schools who added something that looked like FMA, but was not really taught well. So I agree with you Reactor!!!

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

https://www.Sayoc.com

https://www.Bujinkandojo.net

[thekuntawman]

most of the "twirling" people see is not really twirling. when you practice abaniko styles, you can look like twirling and i am not talking about just the one-two abaniko that makes up the entire knowledge of some peoples abaniko techniques.

another method that looks like twirling, is the movement of the stick around the opponents arms, from one target to another, that you have to distract the opponent so you can set yourself up for better striking position.

and then, another method is the slow down-speed up method, that works against opponents who move faster than they can think. you use this method to draw a reaction from your opponent, so you can follow up with a strike from different angles.

then there is single stick sinawali, using your free hand in a pattern with the stick. you have to "twirl" the stick to avoid getting arms crossed while you alternate using the free hand and the weapons hand.

i know its hard to imagine from my words, but its the best i can explain it.

[Juramentado]

Originally posted by Reactor
It appears from my comments as well as that of Juramentado that there are some FMAers who have been trained to "twirl" with their hands opening during the motion.

In the many schools and styles I've studied here in the Philippines, Ive never encountered anyone teach it that way.

In fact, I've always used this as an indicator of sorts everytime I see someone pick up a stick and twirl it. If I see that the person opens his hand when he twirls it, I immediately but silently conclude that he/she is a poseur, rightly or wrongly.

Which leads me to wonder whether this is a common thread that binds such practitioners. Hmmm ...

Yup, same here. I think it would be same to assume that all FMA styles, the real ones anyway, do not teach their students to do any baton twirling. But out of common courtesy I'll refrain from accusing anyone of being a poseur..

Twirling a stick that way is a surefire way to have it flying out of your hand when someone strikes at your stick or arm. It just doesn't make sense to twirl the stick between your index finger and thumb. If you are going to do anything that looks like twirling in FMA, it will be with all your fingers on the stick.

Real FMA retains its true combative nature. There is very little room for aesthetics in true FMA. If the movement is beautiful, that beauty is just a byproduct. The movement is meant to disarm, wound, stab, slash, bludgeon, dismember, decapitate and disembowel attackers. Anything else is just fluff..

[haumana2000]

I agree, and this is what I have noticed. I will use this example again. A karate school had claimed to teach Escrima in my area. They were distributing flyers at the local mall. When I read the overview of the curriculum in the pamphlet, it said twirling for coordination excercise and self-defense. Ya guys like apples?


How do ya like those apples!

[moromoro]

Real FMA retains its true combative nature. There is very little room for aesthetics in true FMA. If the movement is beautiful, that beauty is just a byproduct. The movement is meant to disarm, wound, stab, slash, bludgeon, dismember, decapitate and disembowel attackers. Anything else is just fluff

exactly, this is true true true,

[haumana2000]

even if you use a parry with the blade, and then rotate the wrist around to cut or chop. that could be construed as a twirling type motion. I think from the original post question of do we use twirling. Yes, and it can appear to the uninitiated to be more aestehtic than useful.. But in the context that true fma' holds. each movement not only holds value, but is an essential and intricate part of the Filipino technique repetoire. The filipino martial arts without the flow that binds them would be karate.

[two sword]

Reactor you said

"Although I'm not an expert, judging from what they put out in their website, I would say they are one of the better reps of FMA in the US. "


Coming from the the Philippines the Atienza Brothers take that as appreciated compliment.

Thanks

Guro Car

https://www.atienzakali.com

[Kiwi]

Try it

As usual it is all context. I like Haumana's example.

Try it for your self. Hold a knife (or a pencil if you don't want to cut your friend!) out and and have someone grab your wrist (not an unlikely reaction to a knife). Now rotate the blade in either direction and place the sharp edge against their wrist, pressing off to release and then draw out the blade.

This "twirl" is my first reaction when someone touches my knife hand.

Regards,
Kiwi

[Airyu]

Hello Everyone,

Kiwi, we see that same technique come out when we grapple against an blade wielding attacker, all the time! Great example.

Also, I remember Dionisio Canete demonstrating his amarra, at blindingly fast speeds!! Guro Greg Alland use to sell a tape of Doce Pares with that demo on it. Definitely one to add to your collection.

The Guros Atienza make good use of the twirl in their fighting drills and methodology!! Train with them when you have the chance. I like the twirl to change the direction my attack is coming from, and or to implement a redondo type strike.

Train Hard, it is the Way!

Gumagalang

Guro Steve L.

https://www.Sayoc.com

https://www.Bujinkandojo.net

[two sword]

Yes Steve,

We have had tons of success using "twirling" to change direction of the weapon without telegraphing the strike and still generate alot of power.

If you dont loosen your grip it can be used as a covering deflection after an initiated power strike.

With a sword its devasting...you practically become a meat grider.

Guro Carl
Atienza Kali

https://www.atienzakali.com

[Airyu]

Hello Guro Carl!

Professor Sotis(founder of AMOK!) once used this analogy: "It is like your opponent puts his hand in the fan!"

With the longer weapon(sword, machete) the beauty of the twirl begins to come out. Those slashing attacks are very difficult to counter, and can be done in rapid succession. In the video "The Grandfathers Speak"(available at the Dogbrothers site) you can see GT Gaje executing very smooth twirling with a gununting.

Train Hard it is the Way!

Guro Steve

https://www.Sayoc.com

https://www.Bujinkandojo.net

[Juramentado]

I understand that some FMA movements can be seen as "twirling" and I can think of a lot of movements that look like your just swinging the weapon aimlessly.

But I honest don't think that you accomplish those "twirling" movements by releasing your grip on the weapon. IMHO that's just wrong. Why would you risk having a loose grip on your weapon just to rotate it back for another strike? You NEVER loosen your grip on your weapon (sticks, ginunting, etc.). If you ever have to change direction, then rotate your wrist. The hard work is in loosening the wrist to allow you to grip the weapon and still rotate it for a follow up strike or whatever move that will require a rotation of the weapon. yeah, it feels awkward and it would seem that loosening the grip would be a better option, but then again who ever said FMA was easy..

Guro Carl : Have you travelled to the Phil. to demonstrate your style? I would respectfully request that you visit and do a series of demos. I'm quite curious as to your style of kali and I'm sure the FMA community in general in the Phil. would like to see what Atienza kali looks like...

[darrianation]

I agree with all those who say that taining with sticks is exercise. Maybe someone else has said this but It also has helped me with quicker hands. If some one is trying to grab me I can respond much faster. Also in close ranges guarding adainst punches a lot like sticky hands.

No one I know carries around eskrima sticks for self defense. So thats usually not the main purpose. I took eskrima/ arnis for two years. The sticks have developed my hand eye coordination and arm strength. It has helped me to improve other aspects to my MA as well. Training with sticks will help anyone better their MA as well too.