does anybody know this?

[thekuntawman]

Originally posted by haumana2000


1.(Hmmm... Didn't know that Karate was a Tagalog word, sounds Karazy!)

2.(Dayum thats ancient!)


3.(Wheres your Proof? Is there a written record of this historical belief? You've made an effort to disprove what every other teacher believes accoring to what they were taught so what gives?) A little bending to try to authenticate your beliefs vs other instructors.


4.(You aren't putting a new name (fighting Eskrima) to describe an older style of Filipino combat are you??? thats a no, no.)

5.Point is, that the PI has no written history. People will always mold according to their personal beliefs and their own agenda. It is a name, nothing more. I even remember a post where you said you use the term Kali occasionally.

6.Come on braddahs, we need to put this one to bed.

1. "karate", like "judo" are common words for martial arts back home, especially a FMA teacher who wants to look "modern", even if there is no karate or judo in those systems. presas style arnis, for example was once known as "arjuken karate" (ARnis, JUdo KENdo). like everyone says, its just a name. but when the students come, i tell them the truth about what they will be learning.

2. "ancient"? the philippine martial arts is ancient. the difference, is with us and the arts of other countries, change is tradition for us. the art should change with every generation. my art is ancient, but its my own modern version of this ancient art. the difference between me making my own system, and many other people, is i have been doing my martial art for more than 20 years. i earned the right to do this as a teacher, not a "instant guro" with 5 years.

3. like you said, nobody has proof. i even use to believe what i was reading. but i saw with my own eyes, and heard with my own ears about the existence of kali in the philippines. i dont fight against the use of kali, only the false stories people tell about it. if you are talking about muslims who do kuntaw or silat, i am proof of that.

4. new names are not a nono for the philippine martial arts. people do it all the time. but at least i didnt say i have preserved a lost art of ____ eskrima (or kinomutai/panantukan/dumug)

5. i disagree. yes, the philippines has almost no written history. but when people change it, it is not what they actually believe that makes them do it, like you said, its personal agenda. many people dont want to let go of the word kali, they find any kind of excuse or "proof" about it. then that lets some filipinos back home call what they do "kali" and make a lot of money doing it. you know what? if i was poor, and saw the opportunity to take advantage off some uneducated foreigners, i would probably do it too.

6. no, as long as people are trying to change what americans think is really happening in the philippines (existence of false arts, corruption in government, starvation etc) the pilipino with a consious should not let it rest. this is how the philippine got colonized before, and why filipinos let shady government get rich while people are starving. let it go, if you dont care.

"typhoon kuntaw karate" is a style that i made for people who do not want to fight full contact. except, they still do, right before the black belt level. i add the word "karate" just like i add "kali" for ADVERTISING. since some people insist on KALI as an art, its the only way i can compete with the schools that do use it, and since most people know the word KARATE, its the only way i can compete with the karate people. i do not teach in back yards, i have a commercial location, so 15-20 students will not be enough. the difference between me and other commercial schools are, my youngest age is 13, i have no womans classes or tae bo, and all of my students fight.

and yes, i use the word "FIGHTING ESKRIMA", because there is a difference between most of the eskrima around, and the eskrima i do. and the difference? "fighting", not "drilling". there is a big damn difference, and the people who sign up quickly find out what they are.

so a new name for an old idea? yes, because what is considered old in my town, is actually new.

so its my turn to say

whats in a name? the important thing is, can i back up what i am teaching? yup, anytime.

[William]

this is the only thing i dindnt like about your post...eskrima arnis not of filipino origin..well of course they spanish words.... but if these are not filipino then our major languages are not of filipino origin according to your statement

Your selectively dissecting my post. Read again...

I wrote:

Eskrima and Arnis are of Spanish origin. I didn’t say that they haven’t “become” Filipino, I said they were not of Filipino origin. Which is part of your argument against Kali. Again, re-read what I wrote.

I didn't say (the words) they weren't Filipino, just not of Filipino origin.

research conducted by GM tony Diego and topher rickets have stated that the word kali was never used until yambao wrote it on his book.. they also could not FIND ANY EVIDENCE of its existence anywhere in the PHILIPPINES......... i think the fma are big enough now so that every body knows about them. why is it that they could not find any evidence that kali existed anywhere in the philippines??????????????????????

Well, then why is it still called Kali on the Bakbakan website? Just curious?

http://www.bakbakan.com/

Where did Yambao get it? Are you saying he fabricated it? Why would he use it? It certainly wasn't to sell Kali to foreigners who would by it over Arnis.

i dont mean to be rude but who are you...

Unfortunately, that's how you come off...intended or not. And who are you?

your not even one of the highest ranking members of your style.....

Are you? I never claimed to be. But I know what I know, and I've fought it out. I don't have a problem standing behind it. Besides, I'm not the one who gets on this forum and belittles everyone who trains FMA outside of the Philippines. There are a number of folks here who just do drills and stick twirling, but there are also a number of us who train for real contact and strive to keep the combative nature of the art intact. So yea, It gets my hackles up when folks like you get on and try pointing a finger at me and try to label me a stick twirler...wrong amigo. Over the years, I have trained Eskrima, I've trained Arnis, and yes Kali on a daily basis. I'm not seminar trained and damn proud of it.

oh yeah we will be having a full contact no protection tournament in cebu 2004..............

I'm well aware, and if things go well for me financially this year, I'll be there.

Look, I'll state again, I don't care what you call it. I'm just trying to get some answers to what I see as inconsistencies and double standards in the "no kali" argument. Don't blow it into something it's not.

TheKuntawman wrote:

whats in a name? the important thing is, can i back up what i am teaching? yup, anytime

That's what I've said all along.

And M&M, you shouldn't be surprised if I give you a shot over the bow for you thinly veiled threat. You get what you give.


William

[haumana2000]

Kuntawman, at least you have the balls, and intellect to stage a conversation that can agree to disagree. That is what this forum is for. I DO NOT TEACH KALI. I teach and perpetuate the culture traditions, and martial history of the Philippines and PAcific Islands. Including Polynesia, and Micronesia. I do not charge for my classes. my program is for displaced Islanders to learn about their heritage, and warrioir traditions so far from their home. I know that there may or may not have been kali, arnis or eskrima, shit when I learned I didnt even think of it as a martial art, just learning how to fight. Instead of techniques, they were called tricks. I just say that it helps to give us Filipinos, (I am Pinoy, and French Tahitian) a sense of pride, and something that we can be proud of. That is better for our young people toi learn than, being enveloped in being Ghetto fabulous, shooting, robbing, and selling drugs. I know I have been there. I WAS A THUG, one of my cousins who teaches with me Pat Marquina spent time in Canon City Correctional Facility (supermax) for doing what we used to. I grew up, and became a man, moromoro, why dont you try it?

Moromoro, all you ever post about is well come to cebu, are you there now? Or are you dwn under? You ride the coat tails of your teachers from your early posts about footwork, oh well gm says this, or that, or he does it this way, or... come to cebu, and youll find some real escrimadors. what hat HAVE YOU DONE? Yourslef? Do you have any thoughts of your own? Or are you just tryin to represent your hood because it is known to have a great tradition of FMA? See, I know all about this, and I have met many like you before, think if you say what fool im from compton! and evryone will automatically become afraid to stand up! Who can attest to your skill? I have fought on the streets, in Juvi, in the Army, and in the Ring, and NHB style fights. I have proof, both word of mouth, and video. What do you have name one source who can attest to your dazzling skill? They always say the empty can rattles the most, and your the perfect example. I remember my dad telling that unfortunatly a lot of Pinoys are like crabs in a barrel, when ever one tries to climb out, the others pull him back in and down. Am I supposed to apologize to the great moromoro for offending you? When you first came into these forums, I used to respect you for your outspoken opinion, and nationalism, as I am all about pride, and showing the world the beauty and effectiveness of our culture. But, any more, I think your just a BUSTA!

Kuntawman, your opinion is always welcome, like I sad I dont agree with the attitude of some of the Kalifornia clan, I do not agree with everything they say or do but lets not hate on a brotha because he did what he set out to do. expose our arts to the world.
Kuntawman,

[haumana2000]

Oh, moromoro, didnt you piss of one of our Bakbakan brothers in another forum who actually lives near you? I read the post, and you backpeddeled so fast when he responded that you should have been on a bike! It's easy when your far away eh?

[haumana2000]

There are those in the PI, who do not just accept, but embrace this word. Showing it is up to each to decide.
From GM Gaje's website:At the age of 66, my life has been devoted to the preservation of the system with the desire that all the elements of the great teachings from my grandfather, the late magnifico Supreme Grandmaster Conrado B. Tortal, will be kept sacred and that the teachings must be imparted with scholarly atmosphere. In the course of such preservation my teachings with many different environments taught me to conceptualize the system into a productive well structured methodology in order that the learning process can be easily understood without sacrificing the true chemistry of the cultural Philosophy - truly Filipino. My emphasis on the intellectual calisthenics was to make everybody understands that in order to learn and to achieve the true discipline is to understand the Philosophical values before understanding the techniques. To me this is the foundation of the true filipino discipline referred as the Filipino Martial Arts.
At this juncture I don't want to use the terminology Filipino Martial Arts because it seems that the more someone uses the word Filipino Martial Arts the value of discipline is reduce to a very discouraging stature. Where can you find a Filipino Martial Arts having a name Escrima in Spanish, Arnis claimed as a Mexican word and a truly Filipino otherwise known as Kali, so if we follow these three names, we follow how the Spaniards name themselves as Jose Mario Francisco De al Fuente or Maria Theresa Antonieta Ledesma in simple logic by using three names as we often see in most books or video tapes or names of the school, Arnis, Escrima, Kali is not Filipino but Spanish in substance. So if to follow the real Filipino culture in making names, it is only one name: Juan or Pedro or Jose or Macario etc. It would be rather more distinct to say, Filipino indigenous discipline, the art of Kali, a Filipino Fighting System. Since martial arts today is identified as Chinese, Japanese,Korean, Indonesian, Malaysian. Filipinos and other names that are existing in many versions, the original practices of discipline has been reduced to more of a fitness program, sports competition and ranking make me blackbelt mania or make me certified instructors after four seminars or how much to be a blackbelt syndrome.

In the old China, to study Kungfu regardless of style, one must be willing to travel and climb the highest mountain peak where the 70 year grandmaster lives surrounded by wooden trees. And for one to be accepted he must do all the ordeals before he can be accepted as a student or in Japan, one must follow the path of a warrior or in Korea one must do what the masters wants to do as test.
And in the Philippines one must have to accept the beating of the feet or arms before the techniques were taught or in Indonesia one must be a Muslim to learn the silats, or to fulfill the 40 days rituals before becoming a student of silat. Of course that is impossible to do these things at the present conditions. But what ever the changes, the Doctrine of Discipline must not be altered or remove from the daily practices. One of the Disciplines is the Discipline of Loyalty, loyalty is not only to the Master or persons in authority but loyalty to the tenets of that Doctrine of Discipline.

Pekiti-Tirsia is an Institution of Higher Studies in terms of the Filipino Cultural Arts - the Art of Kali, a Filipino Fighting System. It is an Institution where the higher studies in combative technology has been enhanced through hazardous personal contacts with the people from the hinterlands of the different islands in the Philippines with the purpose to authentic the originality of the systems interoperability and to check the relationship of the cultural practices from the ceremonial dances to ritualistic metaphysical power applied to the fighting advantage.

The task was so important because as the only remaining Pekiti-Tirsia in authority I have to fulfill the mission of my great grandfather that in order for me to expand my understanding on how the Pekiti-Tirsia can be compared to other system I must interface with the non- Pekiti-Tirsia system not to copy or pirate their techniques but to make comparative analysis what is the weak parts in the other system and to find out what is the strong points in other systems. As what they did in the past with all his brothers making long journeys to find out who were the best in certain places in the Islands and neighboring Islands. More than 12 years in the Philippines and in and out to countries in Asia, interfacing with Indonesian and Malaysian Art that is truly Asian arts provided me a wider perspectives that the foundation of the Pekiti-Tirsia footwork strategies and the open hand strategies found its plurality in the mountains of Sumatra where the word siko is found which is also siko in Ilonggo, which is an elbow, mata also mata to Ilongo, the eyes and the sipa or sikad, kicks also in Ilonggo my own dialect and to check the word Kali in Malaysia was mentioned as often in the sentence as the words were spoken where the word Kali is a prefix in the Filipino language.

So the mission of the Pekiti-Tirsia is to provide each student, instructors and master instructors a scholarly materials of what is truly Filipino with indigenous materials based on Philosophy, logic and reasons that in the course for the furtherance of continuing mastery, what is truly Filipino culture braced with hospitality, courtesy and discipline will leave as lasting legacy as were experienced by the Spaniards in 1521, Americans in 1900, Japanese in 1942. It was inexcusable defeat that made the Filipino Fighting Art, the art of indigenous virtue, the art that won the war.

Pekiti-Tirsia will continue to live with that victory and we will defend that victory at all cost to preserve the only legacy proud to be called the LEGENDARIES of the modern times in the living past.

This has been proven by the first Filipino Martial Arts tournament in Cebu in 1979. Against the veteran Doce Pares claimed undefeated since 1930 in many full contact challenges. Pekiti-Tirsia made the first victory by defeating the Champion of Doce Pares before the crowd of 5,000 people at the Cebu Coliseum on record.This was the first test how was an original indigenous technology of Pekiti-Tirsia defeating the Escrima, Judo, Aikido mixed under the banner of Doce Pares.

On August 2004, the Pekiti-Tirsia Global Organization and the Pekiti-Tirsia Pitbulls with a joint sponsorship of the Force Recon Marines will sponsor the Battle of Kali 2004 to be held in Metro Manila-Philippines in an Extreme Full Contact Tournament on a Surrender Policy with a simple rules: "If you cannot stand the heat, get out from the kitchen" This is an open tournament provided the system or style is existing and willing to accept the rules.

55 years old and up are invited to join no headgear policy, 3 minutes per round total of 6 rounds. Choice of all out policy (Mas todas). No definition of titles or ranks. Come to what you believe and go if you have no business.

Below 50 years old no headgear, no body armour, surrender policy, no judges, no referres. Only Sports Marshall will separate after one surrenders.

By virtue of the Filipino Fighting Arts the Philippines is the best location for this type of tournament because if the tradition is correct, dignity of the traditional art must be respected and that no reason for one to disrespect by disproving that the tradition is wrong. If one believes that it can break the tradition then he must enter into this tournament. Our Force Recon Marines from heavy weight to light is on training now at least 6 hours a day following the tradition until August 2004, they are prepared to disprove that tradition is wrong but will defend that the tradition is right. So our other ultimate mission is to find out where and who wants to break the indigenous tradition, that will destroy the legacy of what is truly Filipino Fighting Arts - the art of Kali. Then we will stand to defend at all cost and maintain the tradition of the victories made by our great fathers who where before us.

There will be various fighting competitions subject to the choices agreed by both parties, this will be held at the most prestigious sports center at a full view of many people including the TV/media channels.

[krys]

Hello William

Where did you get the information that Kali was outlawed in the Philippines, i am really interested? Is there a Spanish text about it?
We would surely find the word Kali in this document.



concerning that i said : The "Philippines islands" were never totally conquered by the spaniards you answered

That is well understood. But they did control the majority of the country.

Vast parts of the country were only "colonized" during the 19th-20th century.
The spaniards controled only a few towns in Mindanao the second largest island of the archipelago. Sulu was never conquered before the american invasion, even we frenchs broke our teeth on it...
...
Muslim raiders were everywhere and even had some footholds in Luzon and Mindoro a big part of the islands escaped spanish control...

BTW, I have two shows taped from the Philippines that refer to Kali on national television. One is Good Morning Asia, the other is a show called Gameplan. So, it's been used and heard nationally in PI.

I do not mean any disrespect but filipinos are specialy receptive to american concepts and ideas, they also like foreign products and names (courtesy of some nice trade treaties...).

For example local "ju-jitsu" (what foreigners understand by ju-jitsu) is called combat-judo. Arts like Wushu or Silat may be called Karate ...
Kali being the word in use in the US sounds better than Arnis de Mano...


Mabuhay ang FILIPINO Silat at Arnis.

[moromoro]

william...

I didn't say (the words) they weren't Filipino, just not of Filipino origin.

IS KALI OF FILIPINO ORIGIN?

Well, then why is it still called Kali on the Bakbakan website? Just curious?

most of the masters that are using Kali have admitted to using it only because foreigners want to learn KALI>>>

it is a name like i said before iam sick of this garbage to use the name is good it sounds good, but its the history of it thats is not true....(from the evidence we HAVE)

yeah i knew you were not a seminar man or a twirler or tapi tapi man.. at least you do the fighting which is more than what can be said about a lot of other people which iam sure you have had plenty of dealings with.....

[moromoro]

WHAT ARE YOU ON???? first you critizise and try to speak shit about somebodys website now this!!!!!!!!

all you ever post about is well come to cebu, are you there now? Or are you dwn under? You ride the coat tails of your teachers from your early posts about footwork, oh well gm says this, or that, or he does it this way, or... come to cebu, and youll find some real escrimadors. what hat HAVE YOU DONE? Yourslef? Do you have any thoughts of your own?

Iam not like you i have not started my own system like you. there is still a lot to learn from the GM's iam learning from...AND YES I DO LISTEN TO THEM AND RESPECT WHAT THEY SAY PARTICULARLY WHEN IT IS PRACTICAL AND HAS BEEN USED BEFORE IN COMBAT....

what hat HAVE YOU DONE? Yourslef?

10 years muay thai 10 years submission arts wrestling(japan) 10 years jujutsu (HEAVYWEIGHT) and 17 years eskrima... yes iam READY..and of course i have thoughts... BUT I RESPECT AND LOVE THESE GM"S AND I LISTEN TO THEM... THAT IS A WAY YOU GET BETTER 'LISTEN'.....

See, I know all about this, and I have met many like you before, think if you say what fool im from compton! and evryone will automatically become afraid to stand up! Who can attest to your skill

you see this is what iam sick of..... FMArtist who claim their style is best.. you see the big ads high evolved, 500year old blade, knife traingles, trapping, blablabla and all those other words i dont know of...............

ESKRIMA IS ESKRIMA if you learn an art which is non drill based and is based on fighting then your probably learning everything there is to learn about the garrote in a fight.... its mainly about startegy and concepts non of this tuhon, datu nonsense.....
this is what i mean by its time to put up or shut up......iam not saying that i have fought this guy and that guy because the guys i have fought non of them where any names (but they where probably better than some of these big name masters)
all i have been saying and this has been from day 1 is that we have never turned down or backed down from a challenge..... In cebu and here. in oz..

Oh, moromoro, didnt you piss of one of our Bakbakan brothers in another forum who actually lives near you? I read the post, and you backpeddeled so fast when he responded that you should have been on a bike! It's easy when your far away eh?

all i have said on that post was first i have admired him and always have he is a pinoy teaching eskrima... but i think that he is taking advantage of people thats all.... he charges too much and he had the audacity to say that maybe what i was learning was not worth 50$ an hour... i told him i was learning from GM ABRiAN AND GM NAVARRO and they both do not charge me they are like hilots which iam sure was the same thiiing as what his teacher charged him...

notice how he didnt reply to my message( private and forum) after he realised that i was training in the same type of scenario as what he trainned in when he was learning. also i have left my email address there and he dind reply to that.

i have shown the message to tatay Navarro and he laughed like anything he was ammused to how angry this person got... also he realises that because of this there may be a few knocks on my door so he has upped the training with me... on my days off i have been training twice a day in eskrima.. but i still go on ave 4-5 times a week....while doing 4 nights of muay thai and two days of submission.... YOU HAVE TO BE PREPARED FOR PEOPLE WHO MAY WANT TO KNOCK ON YOUR DOOR....

DAGHAN KAAYONG SALAMAT

TERRY

[moromoro]

MAN the people on this forum are a whole lot better than those in martial talk.....

[haumana2000]

First of all. I owe everyone on this board an apology, thats what happens when you write when pissed off. I should have been the bigger man and let it go. Moromoro, Hell yeah I got pissed off, I did not "create" my own style, I dont do Inosanto Kali, or panantukan, or any of that. But you know it pisses me off when you somehow insinuate that I am somehow not a proud pinoy when I have been working to ignite the flame of culture in our young people for many years. Try being the only person not black or white, at a military base in Georgia U.S, the shit I had to put up with, I AM PROUD!!! The fact that I do not criticize the inosanto clan is me saying hey Dan, at least you had the balls to expose to the world what noone else did at the time. As for Kuntawman, and his website if you look at the website, there are things on it that could be construed as contrary to his posts here am I wrong? I stated, dont get mad at other instructors for using Kali if you do the same thing, end of point. Now, I maintain what I said about how I sued to agree with alot of what you used to say, but lately it just seems like your tryin to disagree for the sake of disagreement, this subject is tired already. However, dont take what I am saying as me trying to retract and do a 180, I stand as a man, we can disagree, but as a martial artist, I should have had more control.

[moromoro]

Now, I maintain what I said about how I sued to agree with alot of what you used to say, but lately it just seems like your tryin to disagree for the sake of disagreement, this subject is tired already. However, dont take what I am saying as me trying to retract and do a 180, I stand as a man, we can disagree, but as a martial artist, I should have had more control.

thats fair enough, but i havent been disagring for the sake of it.. as i have said i dont care for the word kali (me you and a heck of a lot of people know better)... we understand the history or as for our culture the lack of it (written history)...its just the begginers and the uninformed who get suckered....

But you know it pisses me off when you somehow insinuate that I am somehow not a proud pinoy when I have been working to ignite the flame of culture in our young people for many years. Try being the only person not black or white, at a military base in Georgia U.S, the shit I had to put up with, I AM PROUD!!!

we rae aLL PROUD and thats what is good about it.....

The fact that I do not criticize the inosanto clan is me saying hey Dan, at least you had the balls to expose to the world what noone else did at the time.

man i look at DANNY INOSANTO AS BEIGN A GREAT JEET KUN DO MARTIAL ARTIST......
I think that he exposed it first to the ''world'' because he was the only one with the resources to do so.. i dont think it was because of balls.............there was no need to have the balls to do something like what he did...


ok until next time

peace

terry

[William]

Where did you get the information that Kali was outlawed in the Philippines, i am really interested? Is there a Spanish text about it?

Re-read what I wrote please. I didn't say Kali was outlawed. I said martial practices.

Let me try and pair this down to what I, and some others outside of the Philippines see as the contradiction in the argument. It usually revolves around the point that keeps being stated that:

Kali = Not of Filipino origin, made up for Americans (or those outside of PI) or Hindu/Indonesian/Malay origin.

Yet you embrace terms that aren’t either:

Arnis = Not of Filipino origin (Spanish)
Eskrima = Not of Filipino origin (Spanish)

Then it gets stated that the word Kali doesn’t exist, yet a cursory search of Filipino history and Language sites bring up words that have Kali as a derivative. Now, I’m not a linguist, but I hope you can see the contradictions from an outside point of view.

Now I will state again, I DON’T KNOW IF KALI EXISTED THE IN PRE-SPANISH PHILIPPINES. But, if you look at what is believed (and listed on many PI University sites) to be the migration routes of the different peoples that over time made up and populated pre-Spanish Philippines, many come from countries or races that do use that word in conjunction with martial practices (the Hindu god of Kali most prominent). Now, to me, that, at the very least points to the possibility the word Kali could have been used in pre-Spanish PI. Was it? I can’t say it was, but the terms Arnis and Eskrima are definitely words that come from the Spanish colonizers. So, if it wasn't Kali, and we know it wasn't Eskrima or Arnis....what was it called?

Now, on that note, I give GT Gaje credit for publicly stating why he chooses to drop the term Arnis and use the term Kali. You may disagree, but he says that he won’t use those terms because they are Spanish in origin and not indigenous to the Philippines. I know that you argue that Kali is not indigenous, but from the points I’ve stated above, it stands a much better chance of being so then the other two.

I don’t know why others use the term Kali. Perhaps they will come out here and let us know. I know there are others on this forum that use the term in their systems. What say you folks?

(With all due respect) For the people who say they don’t believe in the term but use it to “draw in students”. You are perpetuating the (what you believe to be) myth that you rail against. You can’t have it both ways.

Again, just trying to point out contradictions that I see in the argument. I can’t say it did or didn’t exist. But in the absence of definitive proof, I’ll lean (as Terrie T. said) on the side of my instructors (and I’ve had them from each point of view) and do my own research as well….and I’m sure you will do the same.

Kali, Eskrima, and Arnis…It’s all good!

William

[terry]

I don't know any historians in the P.I. There is a guy (I forget his name--Pinoy in his 60s though) up at the University of Washington in Seattle who is very respected in the English language for his research on Phillippines History. He may be able to suggest some primary source material (or lack thereof), but I don't think that the debate here would interest him too much.

I don't know that I'm informed enough on this issue to assert an opinion. The substance of this debate has centered around the appropriateness and origin of the word "Kali". Regardless of its origins it has apparently come into common usage in the English language even though its use is more problematic in the P.I.

I will say that the tone and character of this debate brings to my mind adjectives such as: childish, disgraceful, chest-pounding, unpersuasive and nasty. I don't think that anybody thinking of taking up the Filipino martial arts, after reading this thread, would be likely to do anything other than head the other way.

If you guys want to use this forum to set up fights then fine with me, but you could be a bit more civilized about it. Perhaps you could take a lesson from the Thais on that one. They're very gracious during fight negotiations...

Terry

[moromoro]

hello william

Kali = Not of Filipino origin, made up for Americans (or those outside of PI) or Hindu/Indonesian/Malay origin. Yet you embrace terms that aren’t either:

Arnis = Not of Filipino origin (Spanish)
Eskrima = Not of Filipino origin (Spanish)

Thats because that is in our culture, the spanish culture moulded todays filipino culture (also american culture has influenced us)
As i have said before we embraced the language, not all of it but all our major languages have been influenced by spanish.....Our religion (most popular religion roman catholic was shown to us by our spanish forefathers)
Many pinoys have spanish ancestry, this is why we have embraced these terms, actually we HAVE NOT EMBRACED THEM IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN KNOWN BY THOSE TERMS TO US...................

THIS IS THE POINT.... ESKRIMA AND ARNIS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THOSE TERMS AS FAR BACK AS VERBAL HISTORY CAN REMEMBER.....


THIS has been my only argument with you.. man i frankly dont care if an art is called kali as i have said before i think it isa cool name anyway.....

Now, on that note, I give GT Gaje credit for publicly stating why he chooses to drop the term Arnis and use the term Kali. You may disagree, but he says that he won’t use those terms because they are Spanish in origin and not indigenous to the Philippines.

firstly let me say i like his system...he is a good master who has been teaching a long time and is well respected in the west as well as manila and negros...

i can not understand this, i can undersatnd where manoy leo is coming from but does this mean he will give up everything because it is not of pilipino origin...what about religion (very important to all pilipino's) catholic or islam he will have to drop it it is not of pilipino origin.. what about the knowledge of making the blades and the use of bladed weapons will he give this up it is not of pilipino origin as well.....?????

i can really understand the true intention behind his statement..

but i guess it could also be view as just using this as advertising, its just like saying our art is different because bla bla its got more history... which is good iam not knocking the advertising but just the power of his statement i believe was a liitle strong and harsh..
and maybe not really needed?????

With all due respect) For the people who say they don’t believe in the term but use it to “draw in students”. You are perpetuating the (what you believe to be) myth that you rail against. You can’t have it both ways.

i think they are following by example, this is common in the PI e.g calling your art karate when it is not just to get the people to train...the best example to the term kali is tatang illustrisimo.. he used it because thats what the foreigners wanted to learn!!!
tatang celo (his uncle) always used eskrima i believe....

my final words on the subject are

ESKRIMA, ARNIS AND 'KALI' are all names...

GO SEE THE CONTENT of a particular style within one of these names and if you like it go for it...........

terry

[William]

I will say that the tone and character of this debate brings to my mind adjectives such as: childish, disgraceful, chest-pounding, unpersuasive and nasty. I don't think that anybody thinking of taking up the Filipino martial arts, after reading this thread, would be likely to do anything other than head the other way.

If you guys want to use this forum to set up fights then fine with me, but you could be a bit more civilized about it. Perhaps you could take a lesson from the Thais on that one. They're very gracious during fight negotiations...

Awwwww Dad.

No, you are correct. That is why as I stated in the begining that I usually stay out of this debate. But, in a way I think it was good to hash it out in the sense that It gives me a better perspective on the issue. It may not have been PC all the time and some calling out went on, but in the end, I learned a few things from it.

William