Closing The Gap - knife fighting

[tomek]

guys, knife fighting is not a game...
maybe You can control somebody's limb, maybe not.
but one mistake can be deadly.
staying away using chairs, gun or just escaping seems to be the best.
even when You are more expierienced it's still dangerous, and wounded opponent, even seriously, still can kill You.
knife fights You win with no wounds are accidents

[Keeper]

"Knife fighting in Largo gets you killed."


Stefreeflow,

So you are saying largo is more dangerous than corto? Hmmm, seems to be contradiction in what people are saying. Obviously, the best way for me to find the answer to my original question is to try it out myself, but I am interested in opinion.

So just to clarify, you feel that largo is more dangerous, and so maybe I should move in the close the gap? (asuming I can't run away for whatever reason, and I have to kill my oponent)

Thank you

Keeper

[tsefreeflow]

What I am saying is these places where they teach students to stay out in largo picking at the opponent with a knife, are teaching these students to get killed. This is my theory and my Masters theory. Believe what you will.

[WaTEr]

is there an eskrima which involves speed,accuracy, and technique? if so, whats the metalitty of someone who takes serrada eskrima.

[tsefreeflow]

Weird question. Eskrima as with virtually all arts involve what you ask. Maybe you should clarify. Serrada, well, mantality is, here are some ideas:

"The stronger and more intense the enemy attacks,
the deeper we go with the knife "

"Whatever is created will live,
whatever lives will die,
whatever dies will live again "

"Always be unpredictably unpredictable"


When two Eskrimadors play,
the one with more skill,
nerve, or luck will win;
and I have never lost

Angel Cabales

[WaTEr]

[Keeper]

Tsefreeflow,

So your method is to advance towards your oponent....

That was (and is) my way of thinking, but you know the only reason I even started this thread was when I saw this

http://www.jenbjj.com/floro1.wmv

As a martial artist who is always flowing with change in order to improve, after watching this, I had to question if maybe that long-range-picking-at-with-a-knife thing was perhaps a better method. I mean, it works for this guy

I dunno, I hope this is a fluke or something, because personaly I like corto - where I can get a grip on the blade hand and use some trapping techniques.

But then... my friend Tomek says this will get me killed. SEE MY PROBLEM?? lol

Thanks guys

Keeper

[Praksion]

closing the gap in a knife fight

just reading what's people's opinions and experiences in this particular thread as i'm studying both serrada kali (angel's disciples) and sayoc kali (kayanan tribe)...

now, people seem to be debating on what range to be in... corto (short) or largo (far)... why not just be trained in both?... serrada, although the name is decieving, is really a medium range, and sayoc primarily teaches in the corto range... both systems are great and they have taught me awarness!...

i must say that i really respect the fact that when i started sayoc, i asked my guro, "what should i do in a real fight?"... his answer:

"run."

that is the best advice that a teacher can give his student... he'd rather have me live than "try out" the techniques... only if i am cornered is when i'm going to do everything i know... hopefully that day won't come!...

p's!

[tsefreeflow]

Well, now-a-days Serrada is many things to many different people. True Serrada is not in middle range but for a milli-second. But you should know since you train it, right? Point being it all depends on your teacher and where he came from and how long he trained with the Masters and how trusted he was. Many have some figment of Serrada but it is not really Serrada. I have seen true Serrada from only two people and one more I have not seen but have been told about. I will let you guys figure that one out. The thing is, Angel taught two styles. I know who got the real Serrada and who did not. THere is no really right answer in talking about fighting with or without a knife. Just do what you want and hope it works. But be true knives can be scary but I will fight someone who pulls one, but if he pulls an 18" blade and knows how to use it, that is when you turn and run. Maybe even if he is not that good. That is a very dangerous weapon, especially in the hands of a true Serrada practitioner.

[Praksion]

well, i too have heard of the TRUE SERRADA and my brother was lucky enough to have seen elements of it with his private instruction with Master Sultan Uddin (Kimball Joyce) back in 1994...

i'm a firm believer in serrada and is my first love... i have also heard stories of several muay thai and silat fighters as referring to GrandMaster Cabales as "the knife fighter"...

the thing is, we have to learn all ranges and expand our experiences for ourselves and if that means that we have to look elsewhere, then by all means, we must look and learn... i cannot wait for the "true" karate, "true" kung fu, "true" muay thai or "true" serrada to be presented at certain people's convenience... the guy with an 18" or 3" blade ready to rob me and cut me, maybe standing around the next corner!

tsefreeflow, where do you teach/practice serrada?.. i'm very interested in learning from more dedicated and talented instructors...

p's.

[tsefreeflow]

I am currently teaching in Kansas, with Toto

[grimel]

Mind if I just splash the water all around?

To see what works with minimal damage to yourself, give your partner ONE section of a news paper rolled tight and closed with a rubber band (for ease). Let him stab and slash at you. Try all your fancy passes, limb controls, and destructions. When he slashes you bleed, when he stabs your bleed and die. Oh, and he doesn't make only one attempt, he keeps stabing/slashing until you finish him.

After you've convinced life ends at all ranges and you contemplate running (also not a good choice unless you are VERY sure you are the faster person with better endurance); but finally realize that isn't exactly a winning line. Try the novel approach of a) realizing not being cut is a VERY VERY low probability and b) only trying to parry/deflect the attacke WHILE BLASTING the throat/chin/eyes of the attacker. That little bit of love should give you a SMALL instant of time to either a) finish the attacker or b) lock & destroy the attacking arm.

Can't take credit for the above, it came from Pak Vic during a serak seminar.

[WaTEr]

If someone pulled a kinfe on me...well first i'd definetely keep my eyes locked on him. Then i'd look around to see if i could use anything to bash him with that was in descent reach. I myself believe in my abilities...but to take that big of a chance, even if there just flinging a knife. The only difference between just someone using a knife and a practicioner is the practicioner will just kill you quicker. so...what do you prefer a slow death a quick one or not one at all? i'd ran my ass off and flee...

"you win some you lose some, but you always live to fight another day"

[NWPTrainer]

1) Assuming the BG actually lets you see the knife...

Even with the knowledge that the average BG is out to not get get hurt himself, I would suggest this for training to test the long range concept previously espoused:
Next time you are training, start at whatever you define as long range. Tell your partner to crash through your defenses and get inside. Tell him wounds ot extremities will not "kill" him, since they won't. If the bad guy is willing to accept your maybe managing to cut his arm, he can crash through your long-range slashes and nicks and bury the blade in your belly. Once he gets in and sticks you once, he keeps pumping the blade.

There are two major problems with the FMA approach to the blade as I have experienced it being taught in the U.S. ONe, it focuses on the duel. If a criminal predator sees you have a knife, why would he pull an equal weapon? It would make far more sese for him to use a longer ranger weapon like a baton or a firearm. If he does use a knife, it will utlize the element of surprise. Speed, Surprise, and Violence of Action will get you a hundred miles further along the road to victory than any nmber of special techniqoes.
Train to face a knife in the hands of a guy that doesn't let you see it til he's stabbing you with it.
Train to USE a knife under realistic conditions. Start unarmed against a defense, and transition to the weapon. Drawing and deploying a knife, whether fixed-blade or folder, is incredibly difficult under the pressure of even a training attack...

Remember KISS. The simple, direct stuff is very effective in the real world.

All of those who proclaim there "streetfighting" credentials make me wonder if they were in BFE when they got in these fights. Bogota, Buenos Aires, New York, Bangkok, London, Johannesburg, places where the violent crime rates are incredibly, frustratingly high, the "streetfights" are assaults. The bad guy goes after his victim to kill him fast.

Who exactly are you training to fight against in self-defense? An unschooled adolescent, the other guy at your dojo, or the worst bad guy you can imagine? I train to deal with the 6'3", 255lb, heroin-shooting ex convict, with more REAL knife and shank using experience than any ten martial arts instructors.

RLTW

[Sun_Helmet]

some options

Here's some options. I'm staying away from detailing what others have already said since there's some good stuff in them already.

1. Frame - meaning to keep your vital targets (lethal spots that will take you out) protected. Know your lethal targets. Know your displacement targets. Know your comfort zones (the ranges you have trained in). Know the principles of the grips you encounter. If you actually see a knife AND if you have a knife deployed (That's a LOT of IF's btw). Then you should train to know the limits of each grip.

In the video- note that the person winning is in pakal grip. Note the lead leg. Note the passable areas. He isn't moving much which tells you a LOT about your options and his responses as well. If you don't know what your options are.. ask yourself why?

Framing is inherent in just about any high level of FMAs. They just call it different things, but something the old manongs show right away. This doesn't mean they teach it right away though...heh.

2. Change the Aggressive Space. That means don't allow the other guy to dictate space. Watch how the video shows the better fighter dictating the space and rhythm of their training session. They are also on a linear plane. The skill level and attributes are mismatched - you can't go by this video because the other guy is not going to win. He is mirroring a better fighter. he is mirroring a faster fighter too.

He should wonder why he is in the same exact stance as his opponent most of the time. He should know what is the faster way to get past the stance he is facing. What does he need to do to get to that moment?

3. Know the correct responses. This is material that can't be covered by text. This is done by active learning.

3. Distract - This involves your individual training history- what have you been taught and what responses do you do that work most of the time for you? (since we don't all train the same way here.)

4. Smother / Close / Shock... different meanings to many folks, but you should investigate what these are.

Largo is as deadly as corto. It isn't the range. It is who gets to the vital target first. Circumstances dictate this, not measurement of space. You train to make sure circumstances are in your favor.

Beyond this will be 'fortune telling' a fictitious scenario to someone I have never met.

Good thread though.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
HUNTED DVD out this TUESDAY!!!
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