Closing The Gap - knife fighting

[tomek]

Sun helmet:
great answer from as I know great teacher


Keeper:
I also love corto
but in real life in fact it's a little bit dangerous... You're just in the reach of his blade.
from kinesiological (sorry, English is not my first language..) reasons You cannot react after seeing the hand coming, time of reaction is longer then time of movement...
of course largo, if You're slow, also will kill You..
but in fact it's not distance but Your abilities.. I just say to run away
I would not get to corto by choosing, simple no way to fix the error if it happens

[Ern-Dog]

Anatomy of a knife fight

1. Be prepared to get cut.
2. Be prepared to REALLY get cut, A LOT, and bleed A LOT.
3. Rush in to try to get control of weapon while hitting as many vital targets as possible.
4. Get cut, A LOT, and bleed A LOT.
5. If lucky, disarm attacker, see #6. If unlucky, continue being cut and then probably die.
6. While bleeding profusely and possibly going into shock, continue having to fight disarmed attacker who is trying to get his weapon back and kill you.
7. If REALLY lucky and successful, be prepared to now defend yourself against attacker's comrades who also want to kill you and you WILL most likely die.
8. If no other attackers, continue to go into shock and wonder if you will now die, which you probably will.
Congratulations...

[WaTEr]

gOOd pOint so your saying we should all carry knifes to make it fair?...

[fgbkali]

There are two major problems with the FMA approach to the blade as I have experienced it being taught in the U.S. ONe, it focuses on the duel. If a criminal predator sees you have a knife, why would he pull an equal weapon? It would make far more sese for him to use a longer ranger weapon like a baton or a firearm. If he does use a knife, it will utlize the element of surprise. Speed, Surprise, and Violence of Action will get you a hundred miles further along the road to victory than any nmber of special techniqoes.
Train to face a knife in the hands of a guy that doesn't let you see it til he's stabbing you with it.
Train to USE a knife under realistic conditions. Start unarmed against a defense, and transition to the weapon. Drawing and deploying a knife, whether fixed-blade or folder, is incredibly difficult under the pressure of even a training attack...

Remember KISS. The simple, direct stuff is very effective in the real world.


I never seen a knife duel in my life seen plenty of stabbings cuttings and shankings but never a stand up duel a reall knife fight isnt pretty and quite messy

\I train to deal with the 6'3", 255lb, heroin-shooting ex convict, with more REAL knife and shank using experience than any ten martial arts instructors. /
if he is on herion unless he is jonsing he is on a downer wory about the meth and crank addicts speed isnt fun to engage

Ern-Dog your a bit knoledgable on this subject getting cut isnt fun at all if you think one can walk in and out of a knife fight I think I am gonna quote your words to them man its near poetry

I have stitched and did what I could for friends in the past but there is no certian defence against the knife it just take milli second for you to be unzipped and how easy in training for a slip to be a grave and costly mistake

Water maybe you should train for your self but keep a close eye on what and how you do things training for the suprise shank is a touchy thing to do you dont want to break some guys wrist who is quickly trying to shake your hand but then that quick movement might not be so innocent

never look up with our mouth open
never date a woman whose brothers have knife scars
and the best wepon in a knife fight is a uzi

[doubleouch]

There is no best scenario in a knife fight. To think that any training will help you much is foolish at best and will get you killed at worst. The fact that the question is asked at all shows the futility in trying to train to be a knife fighter. The problem with knife training is that you can't test your techniques like you can if you train boxing or grappling etc. It becomes nearly impossible to know if your years of training would have any merit if you ever had to use it. I'm not trying to step on any toes, just trying to inject a little reality to the issue. My question is how do you know if you can knife fight?

[Keeper]

There are ways of testing knife fighting technique in a controled and safe environment. Same way as with self defense stuff - PROTECTION. Using foam or rubber knives, getting padded up so as to prevent injury, but not so much that you can't move realisticly.

Heard of the Bujinkan ninjutsu guys putting chalk powder on the cutting edge of tantos and sparing - seeing where eachother had been 'cut'. Similar method is to wear white t-shirts and use marker pens (crude, but kinda affective I guess)

Personaly I beleive knife-to-knife combat is one of if not THE most violent aspects of martial combat. I train knife, I like knife... but I NEVER want to get into a reall knife-fight.
And it seems we are all aware of the realities of knife fighting - IT'S BLOODY and we know it.

Either way, I'd still put my bets on the trained guy when it does come to a knife-to-knife encounter.

(I happen to be one of those trained guys )

Train well

Keeper

[doubleouch]

Good post keeper. My point is simply that it is harder to come up with drills that mimic the actual event in knife fighting than in other types of training. The drills are farther from the actual event than in boxing, wrestling etc. There is nothing you can do about it. You just have to realize it and take that into account.

[tsefreeflow]

What system do you learn? and where does you knife training come from?

[szorn]

Re: Closing The Gap - knife fighting

Originally posted by Keeper
Just wondering what opinions are about closing the distance when engaged in a knife fight with a long-range-fighting oponent.

I've been training for close-quarter techniques like parrying-and-countering and trapping-and-countering. But recently reallized that not all oponents will be standing right in front of me when attacking.

So, what if he's a few feet away, but lashing out with long-range slashes and stabs with an out-stretched arm?

Do I just hold my ground and stab or slash at his attacking arm.. Hope that a cut to the forearm or wrist will end the fight?

Do I avoid all attacks with footwork and angleing, and wait for him to get in range?

Do I try to hold the attacking arm after striking it (just like CQC) and then close the gap by pulling him and moving forward in and countering to the body?

Do I just shut the hell up and stop asking silly questions? lol

Thanks for your help guys,

Keeper

There are essentially two ranges when dealing with a knife attacker- Longe range- this is the range beyond largo range where escape is the primary option. If you can't escape , use environmental objects as obstacles and improvised weapons to neutralize the attacker before he closes the gap. The second range is -Close Quarter range- were it's easier to control the attacker and apply vicious counter-attacks. The truth is that all of this will likely happen so fast that you will likely have little time to draw your own knife and it will likely be an empty-hand vs knife attack situation. knife vs knife situations are pretty uncommon out on the streets.

Steve

http://www.geocities.com/combatives

[szorn]

Originally posted by doubleouch
There is no best scenario in a knife fight. To think that any training will help you much is foolish at best and will get you killed at worst. The fact that the question is asked at all shows the futility in trying to train to be a knife fighter. The problem with knife training is that you can't test your techniques like you can if you train boxing or grappling etc. It becomes nearly impossible to know if your years of training would have any merit if you ever had to use it. I'm not trying to step on any toes, just trying to inject a little reality to the issue. My question is how do you know if you can knife fight?

You learn to fight with a knife and to defend against a knife the same way you do any other form of martial arts or self-defense. To say that this cannot be done is simply an opinion based on inexperience. The majority of Filipino Martial Arts and various forms of sword fighting are based on actual combat and warfare applications. However, I tend to favor a more modern approach to training but the end result is still the same. Train realistically under the adrenal response and you will be able to apply those same skills out in the real world, it's that simple. Not to mention that hundreds of people have used knives to save their lives or have defended against real knife assaults and lived. A majority of these people have had no martial arts or self-defense training at all.

There was an individual who wrote a letter to the editor of Black Belt Magazine stating similar things about gun defense. He said it couldn't be done and shouldn't be taught. Of course, I replied to this letter proving that it has been done and continues to be done by untrained individuals. The fact is that people just need to spend some time doing some research to find out what really goes on out there in the streets, and spend less time forming opinions on lack of knowledge.

Steve http://www.geocities.com/combatives

[szorn]

Originally posted by NWPTrainer
1) Assuming the BG actually lets you see the knife...




Train to face a knife in the hands of a guy that doesn't let you see it til he's stabbing you with it.


RLTW

I agree with most of your post with exception to the above quotes-

Statistically, these types of attackes only happen in prisons or during assassination attempts. For the most part, a knife is used as an intimidator by bad guys to get what they want. Yes, they may progress up to killing you with it but first they will flash the knife or hold it up against the face, throat, etc. in order to scare and intimidate. So, students should learn to deal with the common attack scenarios and then progress to the least common.

Steve http://www.geocities.com/combatives

[Keeper]

"Yes, they may progress up to killing you with it but first they will flash the knife or hold it up against the face, throat, etc. "

This really is a common method of mugging. Ironicly, I find dissarming an attacker in this scenario is actaully the easiest kind of defense against an armed oponent.

Not trying to make a point... just saying

Keeper

[szorn]

Originally posted by Keeper
"Yes, they may progress up to killing you with it but first they will flash the knife or hold it up against the face, throat, etc. "

This really is a common method of mugging. Ironicly, I find dissarming an attacker in this scenario is actaully the easiest kind of defense against an armed oponent.

Not trying to make a point... just saying

Keeper

I agree, it is a common method of mugging as well as a common method of initiating a rape, two of the most common types of street assaults. I also agree that it is the easiest method of assault to deal with since the knife is generally held in static positions just waiting for the good guy to react.

Steve

[doubleouch]

I don't think anyone is saying that training with the knife can't be done. Certainly it can. There are just some fundamental things that happen in a knife fight that you can't mimic in a drill. How you gonna mimic getting cut and fighting on? How you gonna mimic the feel of your knife piercing the other guys skin? How you gonna mimic the feeling you have when someone lunges at you with the intent to kill? You can try and make up some drills that approximate these things. The question is I guess, Are these approximations that we come up with close enough to the actual event that the skills learned will transfer? If you say yes they are then I wonder how you know that? It seems the only way to know that is to test it out in a real knife fight. We can test out techniques in sparring, but then we have to assume that sparring is a close enough equivelent to the real event that it is a good measure. Is it? Again, if you think it is then how do you know for sure? It becomes an endless circle with no answer unless you test with real knife fighting.

[szorn]

Originally posted by doubleouch
I don't think anyone is saying that training with the knife can't be done. Certainly it can. There are just some fundamental things that happen in a knife fight that you can't mimic in a drill. How you gonna mimic getting cut and fighting on? How you gonna mimic the feel of your knife piercing the other guys skin? How you gonna mimic the feeling you have when someone lunges at you with the intent to kill? You can try and make up some drills that approximate these things. The question is I guess, Are these approximations that we come up with close enough to the actual event that the skills learned will transfer? If you say yes they are then I wonder how you know that? It seems the only way to know that is to test it out in a real knife fight. We can test out techniques in sparring, but then we have to assume that sparring is a close enough equivelent to the real event that it is a good measure. Is it? Again, if you think it is then how do you know for sure? It becomes an endless circle with no answer unless you test with real knife fighting.

Again, this all goes back to research. There are are literally hundreds of people out there that have been stabbed, cut, etc. and then there are those that have stabbed and cut others. Lots of these people have told their stories in books, new articles, on tv news, etc. You can generally find former convicts and soldiers who are willing to share their experiences with others. This information can provide some great insight to those who aren't interested in testing their theories against real attackers. From all of this knoweldge and experience we get a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't, atleast we get an idea of what has the potential to work. If you combine this knowledge with "realistic" training based on the adrenal response and gross-motor skills you get a pretty good training routine which is as close to reality as possible. As far as sparring goes, that has nothing to do with "reality". Sparring is sport based concept that has very limited applications out on the street.

In short, with proper "realistic" training you can develop a solid grasp of what can and does occur in real situations under the same stress. You just have to have an understanding of how to train realistically.

Let's take gun fighting as an example- Most people don't want to go out and shoot someone or get shot to find out what a gun fight is like. However, with modern training tools such as simunitions (which are paint bullets shot from real guns) the training can be designed to replicate reality in almost every way except we now have decreased the risk of death to the trainees. Although, there have been deaths in simunitions training due to improper safety procedures.

As you point out we can't mimic everything involved in such in an encounter but we can come pretty close.

In short, if you believe in your theories so much, why waste time training in any martial arts or self-defense systems? The truth is that mind-set is THE most important aspect to surviving life-or-death altercations and your statements show that you lack this mind-set. Once you develop the proper mind-set, everything else comes into perspective.

Steve http://www.geocities.com/combatives