Closing The Gap - knife fighting

[NWPTrainer]

Originally posted by szorn


I agree with most of your post with exception to the above quotes-

Statistically, these types of attackes only happen in prisons or during assassination attempts. For the most part, a knife is used as an intimidator by bad guys to get what they want. Yes, they may progress up to killing you with it but first they will flash the knife or hold it up against the face, throat, etc. in order to scare and intimidate. So, students should learn to deal with the common attack scenarios and then progress to the least common.

Steve http://www.geocities.com/combatives

I would be interested in seeing the source of your "statistics." Even if this were the case, simple logic tells me that this is not the guy I need to worry about getting into a "knifefight" with. If the BG is stupid enough to flash the weapon at me prior to actually engaging, I am gonna do a very rapid about face and move the Hell out. It is still the guy that doesn;t let you see the knife that worries me. THis is the guy that is the "pro." If you can learn and train to face the pro, then everyone less professional is a walk in the park to deal with (figuratively speaking, of course.)
THe whole issue of reduced reaction time, due to not seeing the weapon until the attack has been initiated leads to faster responses, which in turn makes it that much "simpler" to deal with someone who lets you see the weapon.

RLTW

[szorn]

Originally posted by NWPTrainer


I would be interested in seeing the source of your "statistics." Even if this were the case, simple logic tells me that this is not the guy I need to worry about getting into a "knifefight" with. If the BG is stupid enough to flash the weapon at me prior to actually engaging, I am gonna do a very rapid about face and move the Hell out. It is still the guy that doesn;t let you see the knife that worries me. THis is the guy that is the "pro." If you can learn and train to face the pro, then everyone less professional is a walk in the park to deal with (figuratively speaking, of course.)
THe whole issue of reduced reaction time, due to not seeing the weapon until the attack has been initiated leads to faster responses, which in turn makes it that much "simpler" to deal with someone who lets you see the weapon.

RLTW

Simply read through the thousands of knife assault stories found in newspapers, books, magazines, etc. Watch cops, real tv, and the various other shows which clearly show clips demonstrating edged weapon attacks. Talk with people who have been assaulted with edged weapons and lived to tell about it. I am sure this research will provide you with all of the statistics that you need. Ask yourself how many people do you know of that have been attacked with the "assassination" method. I am going to guess it's a big zero. Ask yourself how many people you know of that have been assaulted in the common manner I described. I have personally been assaulted with the most common method seen and know of several other people who have had similar altercations.

I agree that escape should be the first priority and stated that in my first post. However escape may not always be an option.

The method you describe is essentially a form of assassination. It's used by someone who wants you dead and has little to do with robbery or rape. If you don't know it's coming there is little that you can do about it. IF you are completely aware of your surroundings, then it's possible to see the attacker approaching. In such a case why would you wait arround for him to attack when you could escape injury free? What makes this different than when the knife is visible? If the attacker wants you dead and intends to use a knife to do it, it's highly unlikely that you will get any warning before hand. In such a case they will wait till your awreness is low and blind-side you. The only thing you can do is hope that the initial wound does not disable you so much that you can no longer fight back. Your options at that point are to attempt to escape or neutralize the attacker and get medical attention immediately.

I agree with your training theories, however as mentioned there is little that you can do to deal with an "assassination" attempt. It's similar to sucker punch training. If the attacker does not telegraph his punch and you don't use pre-emptive tactics, it's pretty tough dealing with the sucker punch. It's pretty common for the defender to "eat" a punch before counter-attacking. This is why sucker punch training includes learning to absorb punches. To apply this understanding to knife attacks, means that we may have to absorb a knife attack prior to our counter. Unfotunately, absorbing knife attacks is nothing like absorbing punches.

My only question to anyone who fears an assassination attempt is, what are you doing or what have you done to fear such an attempt on your life? Lastly, why waste valuable training time on an event that is least likely to happen?

I should also ask, why are you worried about getting into a "knife fight" when knife fights are extremely rare? I would rather worry about getting hit by a car which is more likely to happen.

Steve

[NWPTrainer]

Having been assaulted by individuals wiedling knives, I am not speaking from blind theory. I have dealt with both types of presentations of the weapon. I have been cut, and managed to prevent being cut. THis was as much due to luck as to anything, BUT had I not trained for dealing with either eventuality, the reality is, as I perceive it, that I would have had much less good luck on my side.

I agree that escape should be the first priority and stated that in my first post. However escape may not always be an option.

If the BG is displaying a knife soon enough that you can see it PRIOR to his attack, you have time to escape. Any other argument is either hyperbole, or macho posturing.

The method you describe is essentially a form of assassination. It's used by someone who wants you dead and has little to do with robbery or rape. If you don't know it's coming there is little that you can do about it. IF you are completely aware of your surroundings, then it's possible to see the attacker approaching. In such a case why would you wait arround for him to attack when you could escape injury free?

Yes it is a form of assassination. It also has a lot to do with robbery, although it may have less to do with rape. If the BG expects resistance to his robbery attempt, he is gonna do anything and everything in his power to stack the odds in his favor. This may include sticking a knife in you to kill you prior to reaching for your wallet. It hs just as much to do with robbery as shooting a victim AFTER a carjacking does...

I agree with your training theories, however as mentioned there is little that you can do to deal with an "assassination" attempt. It's similar to sucker punch training. If the attacker does not telegraph his punch and you don't use pre-emptive tactics, it's pretty tough dealing with the sucker punch. It's pretty common for the defender to "eat" a punch before counter-attacking. This is why sucker punch training includes learning to absorb punches. To apply this understanding to knife attacks, means that we may have to absorb a knife attack prior to our counter. Unfotunately, absorbing knife attacks is nothing like absorbing punches.

This is assinine. The whole point of training to avoid a "sucker punch" is to learn to recognize and internalize the physical indicators that the BG is punching. I don;t care who you are, if you throw a punch, stab, etc, there is gonna be some form of indication prior to it connecting.

THis can be made more pronounced by the intended victim controlling the battle space prior to the initiation of physical hostilities. If someone approaches you to within conversational distance, you cannot simply slug them. You can however, shift your position UNOBTRUSIVELY, in a manner that means in order to hit you with any effect he has to shift his position to catch up with you. When he shifts his position, yu have a pre-fight indicator that he is about to attack. You can either attack pre-emptively, or repeat the process until you are CERTAIN that his intent is to attack.

It's not about absorbing the punch or the stab. It's about controlling the battlefield so you can make space or close the gap, as necessary. I am all about speed, surprise, and violence of action, but the aggressiveness has to be moderated by common sense. Trying to absorb a knife attack on your forearm makes about as much sense as trying to catch a 230-grain JHP from a .45 with your teeth. It doesn't.

My only question to anyone who fears an assassination attempt is, what are you doing or what have you done to fear such an attempt on your life? Lastly, why waste valuable training time on an event that is least likely to happen?

I should also ask, why are you worried about getting into a "knife fight" when knife fights are extremely rare? I would rather worry about getting hit by a car which is more likely to happen.

I haven;t done any particular thing that leads me to fear it, but my occupations make it common sense for me to be concerned with the most dangerous attack I can imagine occurring.

As far as being worried about getting in a knifefight, I am not overly worried about it. I do however, realize that in the modern world, criminals do not attack you with their fists, even if there is a group. They are far more likely to utilize edged-weapons and/or impact weapons of one sort or another. THus, I train for them, as well as unarmed.

RLTW

[Keeper]

"Simply read through the thousands of knife assault stories found in newspapers, books, magazines, etc. Watch cops, real tv, and the various other shows which clearly show clips demonstrating edged weapon attacks. Talk with people who have been assaulted with edged weapons and lived to tell about it"

It was like that for me. Knife to the throat before they robbed me. Was only a kid then, so no fancy disarming techniques that day. Would have been useless anyway - there were six of them. This IS the most common form of knife assault.

Keeper

[szorn]

Originally posted by NWPTrainer



If the BG is displaying a knife soon enough that you can see it PRIOR to his attack, you have time to escape. Any other argument is either hyperbole, or macho posturing.

No argument there. That is exactly what I was saying. However, even if you see the knife prior to the attack there are situations that may present themselves where escape is not an option. Example- your wife and kids are with you, you are cornered in a room or alley, etc. etc. To say these common situations will never present themselves is ignorant.

Yes it is a form of assassination. It also has a lot to do with robbery, although it may have less to do with rape. If the BG expects resistance to his robbery attempt, he is gonna do anything and everything in his power to stack the odds in his favor. This may include sticking a knife in you to kill you prior to reaching for your wallet. It hs just as much to do with robbery as shooting a victim AFTER a carjacking does...

This is essentially your personal opinion and isn't based on fact. I have never found anything in my research to support this opinion. Such an encounter may happen once in a great while but it is not the norm. Again this type of attack IS common in prisons and during assasssination attempts but is highly unlikely in average everyday assaults. Also, the most ingnorant attacker will selectively choose his potential victim based on his perception that they are non-resistant. In other words, he will not likely choose a victim that he thinks will fight back. This is pretty common among criminals and supported by criminal interviews. So, your theory that they will just walk up to there victim and attack them in this manner is more assinine than anything I have said here.

This is assinine. The whole point of training to avoid a "sucker punch" is to learn to recognize and internalize the physical indicators that the BG is punching. I don;t care who you are, if you throw a punch, stab, etc, there is gonna be some form of indication prior to it connecting.

Actually, that is only one aspect of sucker punch training. The other aspect is understanding how the blows will effect you and understanding how to deal with them when they connect. Regardless of who you are or how long you have trained, you are not invincible. Even the best in the world can be completely destroyed by accident. To think otherwise is not only assinine but life-threatening. Also, if you believe these theories then why would you not be able to recognize a knife wielding attacker when he approaches you, even if the knife is obscured from your vision? I have to point out that there will be some strong indicators that divulge his intentions.

THis can be made more pronounced by the intended victim controlling the battle space prior to the initiation of physical hostilities. If someone approaches you to within conversational distance, you cannot simply slug them. You can however, shift your position UNOBTRUSIVELY, in a manner that means in order to hit you with any effect he has to shift his position to catch up with you. When he shifts his position, yu have a pre-fight indicator that he is about to attack. You can either attack pre-emptively, or repeat the process until you are CERTAIN that his intent is to attack.

If the potential attacker demonstrates his intent to harm you, either physically or verbally, a pre-emptive attack is both logical and legal in most states. I agree that "shifting" in preparation is an option but if you get enough indicators to conclude that you need to "shift" why would you wait around to see what the potential attacker is about to do, why not just escape as you said previously that you would do? Or why not pre-emptively strike? The fact that you felt the need to "shift" would indicate a potential threat, a threat that should either be dealt with or left in the dust.

It's not about absorbing the punch or the stab. It's about controlling the battlefield so you can make space or close the gap, as necessary. I am all about speed, surprise, and violence of action, but the aggressiveness has to be moderated by common sense. Trying to absorb a knife attack on your forearm makes about as much sense as trying to catch a 230-grain JHP from a .45 with your teeth. It doesn't.

That was my point exactly. It's not about absorbing the punch or the stab. However, those are last ditch options that you may be forced to use due to the reality and chaos of life-or-death altercations. Controlling the battlefield is a sound theory and I am all for it, but chaos rules supreme out on the streets. Your picture-perfect scenarios only exist in the training-world they do not exist in the real-world. Apply all common sense tactics as soon as possible, but as I pointed out before even the best in the world are not invincible. Thay make mistakes or the bad guys get lucky. Either way, highly trained individuals have died believeing that they should have seen it coming.

I haven;t done any particular thing that leads me to fear it, but my occupations make it common sense for me to be concerned with the most dangerous attack I can imagine occurring.

If you work as a police officer, corrections officer, bouncer, bodyguard, security officer, bail enforcement agent, repo man, or some other high risk occupation then I can understand your concerns. However, as mentioned before it's more likley to get hit by a car than attacked in the manner you suggest.

As far as being worried about getting in a knifefight, I am not overly worried about it. I do however, realize that in the modern world, criminals do not attack you with their fists, even if there is a group. They are far more likely to utilize edged-weapons and/or impact weapons of one sort or another. THus, I train for them, as well as unarmed.

RLTW [/B]

I agree that the majority of assaults involve weapons and that should be a priority among all "reality" trainers and instructors. I am dedicated to 'reality" training. That isn't the question though. This thread started out as a question about "knife fighting" which is essentially a duel where both indivduals have a knife. That is what I was getting at, that "knife fights" are a very rare occurrence but knife assaults are very common. Even though knife assaults are common the method of attack discussed here is rare, except inside prison walls.


Steve http://www.geocities.com/combatives

[doubleouch]

Szorn,
How do you know that your knife training will work? How many knife fights have you been in? Sparring in class is not a knife fight. I guess you have to ask yourself is it close enough to give me the feeling of a knife fight? It is circular logic. The only real way to know 100% for sure is to test your techniques in real knife fighting under many different senarios. Any thing else is pure conjecture.

[szorn]

Originally posted by doubleouch
Szorn,
How do you know that your knife training will work? How many knife fights have you been in? Sparring in class is not a knife fight. I guess you have to ask yourself is it close enough to give me the feeling of a knife fight? It is circular logic. The only real way to know 100% for sure is to test your techniques in real knife fighting under many different senarios. Any thing else is pure conjecture.

Again, if you had read the above posts you would understand that thousands of men and women have already done the testing for me. Do some research and stop basing everything on pure opinion! Also, as mentioned, "sparring" is sport based training and has very little to do with real life-or-death altercations. The fact that you keep returning to the subject of "sparring" demonstrates your lack of knowledge of what "reality" training really is. If you do some research you will come to understand this.

Also, as I mentioned above you don't seem to have the mind-set to understand what it takes to survive life-or-death altercations. Develop the mind-set and everything else falls into place.
In such a case I would recommend some other hobby for you rather than martial arts or "reality" self-defense.

Steve http://www.geocities.com/combatives

[NWPTrainer]

even if you see the knife prior to the attack there are situations that may present themselves where escape is not an option. Example- your wife and kids are with you, you are cornered in a room or alley, etc. etc. To say these common situations will never present themselves is ignorant.

I'll grant you this. Being single with no children, this is one I tend to overlook occasionally. Even with girlfriends however, I make it a point to discuss contingencies. They basically fall along the line of, if I say "run like Hell" you better be running or I'm gonna run over your ass. Not that I would actually leave a non-combatant behind, but....it gets the point across. As for running with the wife and kids.....I don't know......

This is essentially your personal opinion and isn't based on fact. I have never found anything in my research to support this opinion. Such an encounter may happen once in a great while but it is not the norm. Again this type of attack IS common in prisons and during assasssination attempts but is highly unlikely in average everyday assaults. Also, the most ingnorant attacker will selectively choose his potential victim based on his perception that they are non-resistant. In other words, he will not likely choose a victim that he thinks will fight back. This is pretty common among criminals and supported by criminal interviews. So, your theory that they will just walk up to there victim and attack them in this manner is more assinine than anything I have said here.

This opinion is based on factual research, interviews with law enforcement, ex-convicts, and victims, as well as personal experience. The problem that comes with anecdotal evidence is that it is always biased in the eye of the speaker. "Yeah, I told him to give me his money, and when he didn't I stuck his ass." Well, that's great, but did the victim realize he was being robbed, or was it more like,

Criminal- "Hey man, got a dollar?"
Victim- "no."
Criminal- "Aw, come on, man, I know you got a DOLLAR!"
Victim- "Hey, leave me alone man!"
Stab, stab, stab...

THis also illustrates what I am speaking of with pre-fight battlespace control.
#1- I can;t count the number of times I have had a vagrant approach me and ask for money. M
Do NOT let them. Any time someone you do not know is speaking to you at conversational distance, you should EXPECT them to attack you. It doesn;t mean they WILL, but if you expect it, and they DO, you are ahead of the ball game. THis doesn't mean ou ht anyone who tries to touch your arm, but you can damned sure slap their arm away, and tell them not to touch you. YOu don;t even have to be rude about it.

When you are carrying on a conversation, face to face, control of the battlespace, in my definition, involves, quartering away from them. If you can stand slightly to the outside of their arms, then in order to attack you, they HAVE to move. It would look sort of like this:

Potential Assailant
V


YOU(#1) YOU(#2)


In either #1 or #2, you would still face the assailant head on, but because you are to his outside, he cannt attack you without a grossly obvious ore-emptive movement. i.e. if he wants to hit you in poition #1, with a right, he has to turn to his right, otherwise you are outside of his angle of attack with his right. If he does use a left, it has to travel all the way across his body to strike you, giving you ALOT of time, metaphorically speaking, to move. The opposite is the case in #2. His left, he'll have to re-position, and his right will travel a long way, and he'll STILL have to move to hit you with any force.

My point was not and is not that the BG will just walk up and stick you. It is more that he will not brandish the weapon openly. UNless you are in a dark alley, where you shouldn;t be anyway, unless you ar TRYING to test your "knife fighting" skills, there will be too many potential witnesses around. In MY expereince, and from my interviews, they will try to coerce you with force of "personality" and threats, to give it up. If that doesn't work, and their intervew has otherwise gone well, they will then attack with the knife from a concealed location. Behind their leg, from behind their hand, etc...

Actually, that is only one aspect of sucker punch training. The other aspect is understanding how the blows will effect you and understanding how to deal with them when they connect. Regardless of who you are or how long you have trained, you are not invincible.

I consider learnign how to deal with a successful strike part of training period, nit just the sucker punch. I am well aware that no matter how tough or well-trained ou are, you can be hit. I have had my ass kicked too many times not to know this.

If the potential attacker demonstrates his intent to harm you, either physically or verbally, a pre-emptive attack is both logical and legal in most states. I agree that "shifting" in preparation is an option but if you get enough indicators to conclude that you need to "shift" why would you wait around to see what the potential attacker is about to do, why not just escape as you said previously that you would do? Or why not pre-emptively strike? The fact that you felt the need to "shift" would indicate a potential threat, a threat that should either be dealt with or left in the dust.

I agree, except, someone siply walking up to you and asing for money is NOT a suficient threat to warrant a first strike. At least not where I live.....I guess if I lived in BFE, it might be, but I live in a city with one of the highest vagrant populations in the nation. In the course of a day, I might be approached by 70 or more people asking me for money. I can't hit everyone. Nonetheless, as I pointed out above, I treat EVERYONE as a potential assailant until they have demonstrated sufficently otherwise. That doesn;t mean I hit them, it just means I make it a point to control the battlespace around us. If they continue trying to position themselves in a manner that indicates to me that they are setting up an attack, THEN I will consider them an assailant, and either break contact, or get hyper-aggressive NOW.

Controlling the battlefield is a sound theory and I am all for it, but chaos rules supreme out on the streets. Your picture-perfect scenarios only exist in the training-world they do not exist in the real-world. Apply all common sense tactics as soon as possible, but as I pointed out before even the best in the world are not invincible. Thay make mistakes or the bad guys get lucky. Either way, highly trained individuals have died believeing that they should have seen it coming.

I use the controlling the battelspace every single day, including on the job. It has never failed for me. And it is "on the street."
It does not work slely in the training environment. IN fact, it is one of the MOST effective real-world techniques I have ever used. I am completely in agreement that the real-world is chaos, and Mr. Murphy is in charge. One day, the technique may not work, and I may get killed using it. The fact is though, until someone shows me soething that works better, it DOES work, and it wrks very well.

If you work as a police officer, corrections officer, bouncer, bodyguard, security officer, bail enforcement agent, repo man, or some other high risk occupation then I can understand your concerns. However, as mentioned before it's more likley to get hit by a car than attacked in the manner you suggest.

I have been a soldier, a bouncer, a personal trainer, a self-defense/personal prtoectio trainer, and currently work for a Dept of Defense contractor. My job forces me to carry a sidearm and a long gun. I also do event security for concerts and other high-risk events. I use the control of the battlespace techniqes everyday. One, I have to try and keep everyone away from my weapons, and two, I have to deal with drunk and sober people that are obnoxious and many times aggressive to the point of violence. I am not speaking out the side of my mouth, or from dojo experience.

This thread started out as a question about "knife fighting" which is essentially a duel where both indivduals have a knife. That is what I was getting at, that "knife fights" are a very rare occurrence but knife assaults are very common. Even though knife assaults are common the method of attack discussed here is rare, except inside prison walls.

I agree that "knifefighting," or more properly, "knife duelling" is so rare as to be nearly a non-occurence. That was my point as well. I still contend that the "sucker punch with a knife" is as common, or more so, than the idiot brandishing the knife and waving it in your face prior to atacking you with it. Additionally, this is a far more dangerous attacker, and is one that your training should deal with.

My belief is that, training to deal with the idiot amatuer, ust because we do not ahve a 100% guaranteed method to deal with the more dangerous "pro" is a gross disservice to the client we are training, even if that client is ourself.

from doubleouch:

How do you know that your knife training will work? How many knife fights have you been in? Sparring in class is not a knife fight. I guess you have to ask yourself is it close enough to give me the feeling of a knife fight? It is circular logic. The only real way to know 100% for sure is to test your techniques in real knife fighting under many different senarios. Any thing else is pure conjecture.

I have seven scars on my forearms, wrists, and hands that illustrate to ME that my concepts work against a knife-weilding attacker. I have anecdotal evidence (see my above disclaimer about anecdotal evidence) from several former clients and friends that these concepts are valid, based on their experiences as well.
I do agree that, outside of actual real-world experience, it is all conjecture, but even conjecture can have some validity, as long as the theories are based on verifiable reality and experience.

Also, as I mentioned above you don't seem to have the mind-set to understand what it takes to survive life-or-death altercations. Develop the mind-set and everything else falls into place.
In such a case I would recommend some other hobby for you rather than martial arts or "reality" self-defense.

Absolutely. The two MOST vital aspects of real-world combatives training should be physical fitness and mental conditioning. If you have the attitude that no one is gonna sto you from getting home and seing your significant other that night, it overcomes a lot of other deficiencies. A high level of physical endurance and strength overcomes even shitty technical abilities. I'll put money on the untrained guy that can run a six-minute mile and bench press 300 lbs over the second degree black belt that weighs 165 pounds soaking wet, nd doesn't do any exercise except martial arts training, EVERY single time.
On the other hand, I think theat the people who do not have the combat mindset are the ones tht can MOST benefit from quality combatives training. The problem is, these tend to eb the same people with an Ostrich view of the subject. (they stick their head in the sand and pretend it won;t happen to them.)

RLTW

[doubleouch]

Szorn,
Rant and rave all you want. You never answered my question. How do you know? I have read all the above posts. I recognize and understand that knife training has had some value to many people in self defense situations. I would have to be foolish to say otherwise. I think if you are using other peoples experience and statistics to prove your training then you are fooling yourself. The only true measure is your own experience. Again, it is impossible to mimic a knife fight in a way that you can test your techniques against real live resistance. Why won't you people admit that there is a large unknown when it comes to knife training? I'm not saying that you should not train the knife or that the training is bad, I'm simply saying that you will never know for sure if your training will be able to save your life, or how you will react in a knife attack because the training doesn't allow you to practice the actual event.

[thompsonf]

I do not know if my blade training will actually work in real life, but I'd rather train in the hope that if someone was to pull a blade on me, that iI have a much greater chance for survival than the average joe than not train at all. I like to make my training as realistic as possible, using everything from trainers to live blades to stun guns (great training tool!). Just a few thoughts.

[Keeper]

Originally posted by doubleouch
Szorn,
Again, it is impossible to mimic a knife fight in a way that you can test your techniques against real live resistance

I wouldn't say that is true. I gave you examples of training methods in an earlier post. The only drawback (if you can call it that) is that the pain felt from non-lethal cuts and nicks can't be simulated. Other than that, the resistance, speed, timing, distancing, openings etc CAN be recreated during training.

Just like training unarmed fighting we can say "you don't KNOW it will work in combat". Of course you don't. Knife, gun, empty-hand - whatever! All we can do is realisticly simulate AS BEST WE CAN during training in the hope that it will help us on the street. Train all you like... doesn't mean you will always win. Even the best get hurt, and often do.

Nobody here (from what i've seen) has promised that their training methods make them invincible. But what I have seen, is that everybody trains as realisticly as possible. What more can we do?

Train well

Keeper

[doubleouch]

Keeper,
There is nothing more you can do. My point was simply that you can never recreate the actual event in knife training. This is a limitation that cannot be reconciled unless you are willing to fight with the live blade to test your skill. Boxers don't have to worry about this limitation because they actually engage in the event that they are training for. Same with restlers, bjjers etc. Nothin you can do about it except realize it and take that into account.

[NWPTrainer]

Originally posted by doubleouch
Keeper,
My point was simply that you can never recreate the actual event in knife training. This is a limitation that cannot be reconciled unless you are willing to fight with the live blade to test your skill.

Actually, if you are training for real-world self-defense, this is a shortcoming of ANY defensice tactics training. Why? Because, in the real-world, we do not stand there and square off with a potential adversay, prior to engaging. Well, outside of high school anyway. The whole point is that, we do the best we can with what we have, and drive on from there.

RLTW

[doubleouch]

Trainer,
Yes you are correct. This is a shortcoming of any self defence system. It is more acute with the knife and more so with the gun. Less so with empty hand. We need to aknowledge this shortcoming and take it into account. There is a random factor and a luck factor that applies to any self defense encounter that plays a larger role than most people will acknowledge. We all want to believe that because we have years of training that we will have some control over the situation. It is human nature. We tend to ignore the uncontrolables and assume that our training will make us safe. The uncontrolables probably will make more of a difference than our training ever will.

[NWPTrainer]

Kind of the point I was attempting to make, albeit poorly. What I actually meant by the not squaring off comment is that, in the real world, self-defense is not a mutually agreed upon endeavor. It tends to be more along the lines of one guy decides to kick the piss out of some other guy, for whatever reason, and second guy is FORCED to fight back, or get his ass kicked/killed/etc...Since all martial arts/self-defense training is "voluntary" this is a drastic shortcoming in any self-protection training regimen. Whether you train with unarmed, knife, baton, aerosol spray, or firearm, unless you are a soldier on an ambush or raid, you will not be in a position to choose the time and place that you will utilize your skills. THis automatically gives the BG an advantage. Technical training will NEVER overcome this advantage. ONly physical stamina and mental fortitude can help you overcome it. I know of very few martial arts/self-defense systems that spend any significant amount of time consciously trying to determine ways to improve these attributes in their adepts.

RLTW