Karate

[MMouse]

I am looking into a martial art for self defence. I also boybuild, and would like something that can compliment it. I am building alot of strength and would like an art which can use it to it's full potential. Someone suggested shotokan to me. Another suggested isshinryu, another judo. ANy comments?

[Szczepankiewicz]

You should ask Bri Thai.

He's an expert both in self-defense AND boybuilding.

Spanky

[MuayThaiFighter]

Re: Karate

Originally posted by MMouse
I am looking into a martial art for self defence. I also boybuild, and would like something that can compliment it. I am building alot of strength and would like an art which can use it to it's full potential. Someone suggested shotokan to me. Another suggested isshinryu, another judo. ANy comments?

I have done martial arts for 17 yrs. I Did Goju Ryu karate for twelve years and Pankration for five years. I learnt more in those 5yrs then the the 12 yrs.of karate.

Like most martial artists I was brain washed into believing katas is everything and very important in order to become a good martial artist,however this is not so.

If self-defense is what you are looking for in martial arts and want to use it to its full potential I suggest a mixed martial arts then.

Judo is great just like any other grappling art but very limited unless you mix it with another art.

Pankration is an awesome one for self-defense as it is a mixture of Muay Thai and Submission Wrestling.Learning grappling is just as important as learning stand up.This way you learn to get out of most situations.

Pankration teaches all the necessary techniques used for getting out of various positions both on feet and on ground but unfortunately no weapons training though.

Techniques of Muay Thai include jabs,right cross,hooks,upper cuts,shin kicks,knees,elbows,bobs,weaving,fighting from the clinche,stand up wrestling etc,

Techniques of Submission wrestling include fighting from guard,side body,reverse side body,mount,and teaches take downs,throws, reversals,break falls of judo and submissions like arm bars,neck cranks,wrist locks,elbow locks,ankle locks,knee locks,chokes etc.

Pankration is based on reality self-defense and street defense,everything is done full contact.All techniques are done until person taps out or is knocked out.

Shooto is also another good art and very similar to Pankration.

Shotokan and Isshinryu are just karate styles and not meant for self-defense but Thai Bri who thinks he knows it all just because he is a cop will argue that.Of course karate people will back him up in order to defend their style.

You said you wanted something that teaches self-defense then take my suggestions because like TKD,Karate teaches katas and useless drills that will never really teach self-defense.

If you are interested in self-defense you really don't want to continue doing katas,don't just take my word for it,try it out and you will see for yourself I am right.

Pankration will definitely strengthen your body and condition you very well.

If you want self-defense without any grappling then Muay Thai is the way to go,however if you want self-defense without any stand up fighting then something like Jujitsu ,Judo or Submission Wrestling are good.

If Pankration and Shooto don't sound good enough to you because you want to also have realistic weapons training then I suggest you join the army,after all most old traditional weapons are useless in today's society where guns and knives are available.

[Nit]

What about TaiChi?

I've know big body builder men to strain their muscles in a fight probably because they didn't have time to warm up.

Tai Chi would help with flexibility, balance and control.

Although apparently it takes a life time (20+ years) before you can use it as a viable form of self defense on the street, so it really would be a case of learning it for the sake of art at first.

You would probably be good a Judo and IssinRyu... but don't do Shotokan if you want to be able to defend yourself on the street effectively, at least not until you have done other styles. The reason I say this is that Karate (Shotokan beign the most popular) clubs can give you a false sense of security when taught wrong, then main problem being that you don't know your being taught wrong until you been taught.

IssinRyu is probably the 'better' (dont flame me) Karate to go for, but that depend on how its taught as well.

Again would appreciate corrections if I'm full of rubbish

[kempo_jujutsu]

style or art doesnt matter as much as training.
i know a guy who is a jkd unstructor under paul vunak and is affiliated with the straight blast gym.
the principle the gym is based on is "aliveness" this is what separates shootfighting, some jujutsu, muay thai, pankration, jkd, judo etc from karate, kung fu etc.(mainly because they are taught incorrectly in my opinion)
in short...style doesnt matter as long as you train that art in an "alive" manner...ie....against an alive (not robot like) resisting opponent who is not going to just let you throw or choke him.
i like kata as much as the next guy, but you must realize that until you are attacked for real (or closest to it you can get in the dojo) your kata movements and bunkai won't do you much good.
how many times have you watched a class where the person attacks but is retardedly too far away to even make contact? too many im guessing....so why should i block a punch that isnt even going to hit me? how many times have you seen a class where the person is defending against a straight punch....well what if he does'nt telegraph...or let you know hes going to attack? what if he throws a jab before that straight right? what if its not even a straight right
in our class if you are attacked and dont move, or parry...you get hit, and thats how it should be i think.
when sparring, there is actual contact, no tip tap crap(that doesnt mean full power all the time)
we work defending against combinations, not just a single punch all the time...in my opinion it is things like that which are going to make or break a style....karate can be effective, hapkido can be effective...any art can be effective if you train in an alive manner.

[Thai Bri]

Re: Re: Karate

Originally posted by MuayThaiFighter
Shotokan and Isshinryu are just karate styles and not meant for self-defense but Thai Bri who thinks he knows it all just because he is a cop will argue that.Of course karate people will back him up in order to defend their style.

What a ridiculous thing to say. If you're going to insult someone, at least make some kind of warped sense.

[greyfox13]

im just wondering, why is karate not good for self-defence?

[brokenelbow]

It's more how it's taught than lacking in self defense techniques. Good karate should look like combatives in application.

[greyfox13]

anyone else?

[Gunjin]

It's more how it's taught than lacking in self defense techniques. Good karate should look like combatives in application.

If the school is just doing katas over and over than yeah katas will not help you much for self defense.

However, if the karate school, dojo, whatever, emphasises full contacted sparring then karate can be okay. If anything the full contact sparring will teach you about timing, distance, and exchanging blows. Knowing your pain thresh hold for recieving blows and knowing what it feels like to actually hit someone is what traditional karate is lacking as far as self defense goes...

[Thai Bri]

Yes. It is in the common training methods employed in mainstream Karate.

- Robotic Kata
- Robotic marching up and down, kicking and punching thin air
- Ridiculous one and three step soarring, where the attacker has to attack in an exact and telegraphed way to allow the defence to work
- Sparing semi contact, like playing a game of "tag"
- Binning the really nasty techniques, and leaving such things as "Revers Punch to body" instead of "Edge of Hand Blow to Wind Pipe.

Its like trying to train soccer without kicking a ball, without running freely....... Or tennis without even having a raquet or a ball. But they still like to pretend that these training methods are effective. Theoretically they're deadly you know!

They made it too easy, so that more students would stay the course and make money. You can train alongside your 6 year old kid and 60 year old Grandma. And both could well be wearing Black Belts.

[kempo_jujutsu]

real karate is effective, simply misunderstood by most, including those who think they are practicing it. but even more so by those who bash it but actually know nothing about it.
personally i prefer okinawan karate, over japanese karate.
the most important thing, as with any system is to have a good teacher, unfortunately that can be tough to find in karate.

[MMouse]

i think I will look into boxing or judo. I live in a small city and am limited to taekwondo, shotokan, isshinryu, judo and boxing. Only have time for one art, so I think judo may be my choice. having more muscle than I should naturally could lead me to probs with boxing.

[brokenelbow]

emphasises full contacted sparring then karate can be okay.

Too much can result in the combatives part being neglected.

- Robotic Kata

Yup, results from not even trying to understand what you're doing in the kata. Art over application.

- Robotic marching up and down, kicking and punching thin air

Time waster.

- Ridiculous one and three step soarring, where the attacker has to attack in an exact and telegraphed way to allow the defence to work

Good to start with at lower belts, but

- Sparing semi contact, like playing a game of "tag"

Depends on the what you call semi-contact.

- Binning the really nasty techniques, and leaving such things as "Revers Punch to body" instead of "Edge of Hand Blow to Wind Pipe.

Reverse punch to the solar plexus, lower ribs, kidneys or many other places can be as good as the edge of hand blow to wind pipe. But I get your point.

[Thai Bri]

Originally posted by kempo_jujutsu
real karate is effective, simply misunderstood by most, including those who think they are practicing it. but even more so by those who bash it but actually know nothing about it.

It is also misunderstood by the people from other arts who always seem to beat Karate. If only they could understand it. Then they'd know when to fall down dead.

brokenelbow - You seem to broadly agree with me. As for the beginners having to start somewhere, I agree. But why not have them start doing realistic moves from the beginning? OK, slow it all down at first. Let people get the hang of it. But Karate instills the robotic movements, and progression seems to be about being a better robot.

And the reverse punch? I actually have used it in real situations many times. In Shukokai we had the "double hip", and practised against foam pads. The impact we developed was considerable (unlike many Karate-ka, who manage to win Black Belts without actually hitting anything). The blow to the solar plexus could finish a fight. But the lower ribs/kidneys are too low for it. I suppose you could make it work, but an uppercut would work much better.