My Take on Karate

[nolimitskarate]

Being new to the board, I have read through several posts and replied to a few - however I have noticed a common thread of what I would call "Karate Bashing" for lack of a better term - several of which come from Thai Bri (no disrespect intended Thai Bri - only and observation)

Alot of the comments revolve around the fact that "Karate" is not practical, Kata - or forms - are useless, marching up and down "Like Robots" Etc, one and three step sparring, etc.......

While I believe that the best way to teach and train in the martial arts is by blending the best areas of several styles (see my hello in the introduction thread) , I think that there are some areas specific to Karate that should be addressed.

I would like to provide my opinion on several of these areas and will post threads for each area, starting with Kata, or forms and hope to get your opinion and feedback on these areas.

I am not trying to persuade anybody to a specific way of thininking - just offering another point of view.

--------/ Respect

[Tom Yum]

Karate is more than about fighting from talking to people who study it. Its more of an art form and way of life that tries to improve your focus, self-discipline and just happens to also teach self-defense.

At the same time, karate has been watered down. I rented an old movie about karate and martial arts in America during the 70's and watched this guy test for his black belt. I forget what the movie is called, but it also has some good full contact tournament clips of wingchun vs. kyokushin, muay thai vs karate etc. Anyone remember the name of this one?


The test was 2 hours long, with the first hour being forms testing, calling out terminology etc. The second hour was pure hell as the guy had to fight non-stop, full contact against brown belts and the 2 and 3-dans. No rest. His classmates watched.

All together he fought about 5 guys, the first 3 whom he did really well defending himself with everything from his arsenal. He didn't kick to the legs, knee or elbow but was aloud to sweep, do karate style leg reaps and throw kicks. He wore head gear and was also aloud to exchange punches to the head.

The last 2 guys had the benefit of being fresh and they were hurting him. After his sensei stopped the match, he collapsed from exhaustion. He had to be dragged to go pickup his black belt from two of his classmates.

That's the old school karate that people keep talking about. These days you go in, throw a couple of kicks and punches, break a board and demonstrate techniques against a stationary opponent, pay $1,000 and then you get a black belt. Then the guy walks into a boxing gym and gets smacked down by a guy whose only been boxing for 3 months.

Old school guys talk about how karate used to be a test of toughness, ability and self-discipine. After seeing this movie I see what they mean. Even then it wasn't tougher than muay thai, but it seemed a heck of a lot tougher than today.

[Gunjin]

(I tried to post this early at work but the firewall doesn't allow posting to discussion groups....)

I studied karate in Okinawa and my Sensei was an older Okinawan man. I will always remember the way he taught us katas because I don't think I will ever experience something like that in the States.

He would count out in Japanese and we would go through the kata step by step. And as he was counting he would walk up to each student and attack them. He would strike us hard wherever he felt like it. Punches and kicks to the stomach, kicks to the legs, and forearm strikes to the arms. He would correct us as he went along if a hand, arm or foot was not in the right place or at the correct angle. But watching him approach out of the corner of my eye as he finished the student next to me brought on an anxiety of anticipation. I knew I was going to get hit but I never knew where or how bad. Sometimes he would hit me repeatedly in the same spot. As if knowing I were expecting the hit; as I relaxed the second and third punch to the stomach would catch me off gaurd as I exhaled after the first blow. The bruises he left on our legs and forearms would last for days. It was like bragging rights between students of who had the biggest bruise or who's lasted the longest.

Now back in the States, I don't think I will every find a school with so much "hands on" during the kata training. Yes, katas do have a place in the teaching of karate. Karate wouldn't be Karate without 'em. It's just rare finding an instructor who knows how to best teach them without seeming robotic.

I'm not saying an instructor who hits you repeatedly is the best way to learn kata. This is just my memories and experiences of kata training....

[ryanhall]

Dude, I would have turned around and kicked the crap out of that guy. Repeatedly. Probably with a baseball bat. Every time he didn't yell out at the proper pitch after being hit, I would kick him in the groin and then choose a random spot to whack him with the bat. So there.

Also, what does standing still and being hit by someone with either an ego problem or an emotional instability disorder have to do with being able to fight?

[Thai Bri]

nolimits- I have posted many times that Karate CAN be a highly deadly system. But it is now all but lost due to its popularity.

I don't enjoy "bashing" Karate. But I also don't enjoy watching others wasting years of their lives trying to learn how to fight in a mainstream Karate class.

I did it, and I don't want you to.

And I echo what Ryan (the Educator) Hall says about that Okinawan idiot.

[jubaji]

Originally posted by ryanhall
Dude, I would have turned around and kicked the crap out of that guy. Repeatedly. Probably with a baseball bat. Every time he didn't yell out at the proper pitch after being hit, I would kick him in the groin and then choose a random spot to whack him with the bat. So there.

Also, what does standing still and being hit by someone with either an ego problem or an emotional instability disorder have to do with being able to fight?

pussy

[nolimitskarate]

Originally posted by Tom Yum
Karate is more than about fighting from talking to people who study it. Its more of an art form and way of life that tries to improve your focus, self-discipline and just happens to also teach self-defense. .......

Tom Yum ......

My First Black belt test took place in 1988 during a week long "Summer Camp". Several Schools that were part of the same style came togethor once a year for this camp and there was usually several hundred student there.

The Black Belt candidates tested all week long. Each of the five days we worked out for approximately 6 to 8 hours with a break for lunch. We were tested on basic and advanced techniques, Katas, self-defense and sparring as well as weapons techniques. The final night of camp the Black Belt Candidates were taken to a roofed pavillion with no walls and stayed there the entire night. Throughout the nigh the pavillion was stormed by Black Belts and the candidates were expected to defend the pavillion. A bit corny maybe - but we enjoyed it and it was an interesting way to end the week.

My second Black Belt (a different stylye) was more recent and perhaps a more strenous test. This test was accomplished in one day (6 - 7 hours). First we were tested on basic and advanced techniques performed on the heavy bags. Each technique was performed 50 to 100 times depending on the technique. This was followed by self-defense, then falls and rolls. After falls and rolls we moved on to sparring. The sparring consisted of 1 on 1 sparring, then 2 on 1 and so forth up to 6 - 1 sparring.

This was perhaps one of the most strenous and physically taxing things I have ever done - and I will say this - I most definately did not "Buy" my rank ........

[nolimitskarate]

nolimits- I have posted many times that Karate CAN be a highly deadly system. But it is now all but lost due to its popularity.

I don't enjoy "bashing" Karate. But I also don't enjoy watching others wasting years of their lives trying to learn how to fight in a mainstream Karate class.

I did it, and I don't want you to.

And I echo what Ryan (the Educator) Hall says about that Okinawan idiot. [/B][/QUOTE]

Thai Bri -

Again, no disrespect was intended - I have not made it through all of the older posts - I started with the most recent figuring they were the more relevent - Simply trying to bring another point of view to the discussion.

As for wasting years of my life learning how to fight - I have been studying various forms of martial arts since 1984 and most definately do not consider it time wasted. Karate / Martial arts have touched many aspects of my life - at work, in my home life, and in dealing with people in general. I have been blessed with several instructors that I consider to be among the greastest men and women I have ever met. These are not the money mongers, although I agree that there are plenty of those out there.

As for the "Okinawan Idiot" - I have not dealt with an Instructor that uses that particular technique for training or testing and do not use it in my teaching. I believe howevor, that if you are going to dish out a punch, you should also be able to take one - if you stand toe to toe with someone long enough it's a good bet that there going to get at least on shot in on you, no matter how good you are, it's better to be prepared - knowing that you can take the shot if you have to.


-------/ Respect

[Thai Bri]

I've no argument with people being able to take a punch. But there are better ways to test this, than have Sensei Ego kick the crap out of a student who is stood there like a statue.

[nolimitskarate]

Originally posted by Thai Bri
I've no argument with people being able to take a punch. But there are better ways to test this, than have Sensei Ego kick the crap out of a student who is stood there like a statue.

Agreed - just trying to point out the possible logic behind it.

[kengar]

And as he was counting he would walk up to each student and attack them.

How many posts do I see people bashing karate because they never get hit and they don't know how to take a punch? And now you want to rip an instructor because hit his students.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not for any type of abuse and feel there is a time a place to hit & be hit during training. Being struck while doing kata can build two attributes; body conditioning and mind conditioning. (Again, I don't think you should try to break someone's face while their training.) You are learing to accept a strike while maintaining your concentratoin on the task being performed. In the middle of a fight you will take a number of blows to your body and you can not allow then to distract you from defending yourself.



Ken

[Thai Bri]

I don't know. How many posts do you see bashing Karate bewcause they never get hit?

[Thai Bri]

PS - Give my love to Barbie.

No, I mean it. Give it to her, OOooooooo. Suits you Sir!

[nolimitskarate]

Some additinal points

I have pulled a qoute from another thread to make some additional points (hope you don't mind Thai Bri).

Originally posted by Thai Bri

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They made it too easy, so that more students would stay the course and make money. You can train alongside your 6 year old kid and 60 year old Grandma. And both could well be wearing Black Belts.
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I agree that there are many schools out there that are only in it for the money - I know shools that charge up to $85 for each belt test and from $500 - $1000 to test for Black Belt (and if you fail you pay again). This is not What I got into the martial arts for - and do not (nor will I ever) charge a testing fee. Choosing a school and and instructor is a very personal choice - you may have to look at several different schools before you find one that fits your goals and needs - just watchout for the sharks !!

Originally posted by Thai Bri

- Robotic Kata

-

See the thread titled "Katas - there is a place for them"

Originally posted by Thai Bri

- Robotic marching up and down, kicking and punching thin air

-

Practicing techniques across the floor or mat may seem riduculaous at first glance - but this type of training can serve a very real purpose when blended with other training techniques.

We practice our punches and kicks primarily on targets, or the heavy bag. What I like to use the above "robotic" marching for is to build combinations. One technique thrown by itself usually is not enough to breach an opponents defense - it's the second or even third technique that does the work.

We build our combinations by first punching and kicking "at the air" across the mat to get a feel for how the combinations will flow and to build coordination and balance (note: this does not teach timing or reflex which is addressed by working with actual "oponents" in partner training)

continued .......

[Szczepankiewicz]

And now you want to rip an instructor because hit his students.

Yes. Granted he has a different and old school style of teaching, but that seems kinda silly to me.

My first experience in MA came at age 12 when my instructor told stories of his instructor smacking students with sticks of bamboo. That's the kind of stuff that Kevin Green is working to discount in all his postings.

They do it that way because it was done that way to them and, in my everlastingly humble opinion it is a load of hogwash.

Spanky