My Take on Karate

[nolimitskarate]

Originally posted by Thai Bri

........... "But I also don't discount the effectiveness of "traditional" training techniques when utilized properlly."

There you go again. neither do I. But I AM saying that your are NOT utilising it properly.

You say you utilise Judo. Fine. Do you grapple with people, or do you grapple with thin air?


Come on. Wake up.

K - lost track of a good bit of that thread but I'll respond to the last bit - I agree that working with a partner is the best way to train - howevor - I don't want a beginner hurting someone or getting hurt - because they are trying to use techniques they don't understand. We put the combinations togethor first, practice on our own, then work on targets / bags, then work on each other - so on this point I think that we have to agree to agree on the fact that working full speed / contact is preferred and agree to disagree that "punching air" as you put it is an effective training method - I see the benefits and you dont. - same goes for forms.

[nolimitskarate]

Originally posted by nolimitskarate


K - lost track of a good bit of that thread but I'll respond to the last bit - I agree that working with a partner is the best way to train - howevor - I don't want a beginner hurting someone or getting hurt - because they are trying to use techniques they don't understand. We put the combinations togethor first, practice on our own, then work on targets / bags, then work on each other - so on this point I think that we have to agree to agree on the fact that working full speed / contact is preferred and agree to disagree that "punching air" as you put it is an effective training method - I see the benefits and you dont. - same goes for forms.

Of course I'm still willing to debate it - but don't want to become repetitious ........

[Szczepankiewicz]

The path of the Karate man ...

That was F*****N Hilarious man!

Thanks,

I needed that after all the mean things Huey has been saying about me.

[brokenelbow]

My take on karate.
Some karate styles are as close to a complete system of self defense and combatives as one can find. Most karate as taught in the US is crap.

[Thai Bri]

Possibly true, but they are rare.

nolimits - I can agree that you teach absolute beginners against thin air initially. Maybe for a few reps of each technique. But after that what is the point of "perfecting" an imperfect method of practice?

Now shadowboxing. That is a different matter. That utilises visualisation and involves freedom of technique and movement. That CAN be useful to an extent. Though I'd still be hitting things if I had the equipment available.

[nolimitskarate]

But they are still in a class full of karate students who will likely attack them in a way that they have been trained to attack, not the way that a regular guy or a street punk would attack them. Also, I sincerely doubt that there is any sort of mental side incorporated into this drill, no verbal engagement, etc.

Thai Bri - Question -

As a police officer - did you practice with a firearm? If so, I would bet that you were not out practicing on real people - you were fireing at targets that were standing still - or possibly the pop up / out ones of people where you had to decide - freind or enemby? then respond appropriately - No verbal engagement, and I doubt the targets would respond in the way a "street punk" would - is this then a useless pursuit also?

I don't think so but following your logic it would be ........

[nolimitskarate]

Originally posted by Thai Bri
Possibly true, but they are rare.

nolimits - I can agree that you teach absolute beginners against thin air initially. Maybe for a few reps of each technique. But after that what is the point of "perfecting" an imperfect method of practice?

Now shadowboxing. That is a different matter. That utilises visualisation and involves freedom of technique and movement. That CAN be useful to an extent. Though I'd still be hitting things if I had the equipment available.

Agreed - I use it as a method for teaching basics and for building combinations, and possibly for conditioning. We practice quite a bit more on targets than with the previous method and utilize quite a bit of contact sparring. We also use many other drills and excercises to practice self defense, etc.....

As a note to address a previous comment about point sparring - we don't teach Point Sparring in class - it is only practiced by students who are going to compete in that aspect.

[Thai Bri]

We are not all routinely armed in the UK like you Yanks but, since I take charge of armed officers, I have had an input to provide an appreciation of what they do.

Of course you cannot train firearms by shooting at people. But you have to simulate as best you can. These are some examples of how they do tha.:-

1. Ordinary target shooting.

2. "FATS" machine. This is like the best playstation game ever. The screen is massive, and various scenarios have been filmed. You have a real gun which fires an electronic signal. You have to react to what you see and, at the end, the computer shows you what you would have hit.

They need to pass this test regularly, and failure means they are off the unit. They also do it in fron of their colleagues. Tension runs high. I've had a go a few times. Real adrenalin pumps, and you lose a good few pounds in seat.

3. Surround targets. I don't know what it this drill is called. It is in a fully ballistically protected room and once again uses film. The officer is totally surrounded by the images and is armed with real bullets and a real gun.

Again the pressure on the officer is very high. It is a pass or fail test, like all of them.

4. Scenarios. Mostly in buildings etc. Drills for rapid intervention into buildings, SAS style.

The do more, but I don't know about all their training. The point with them is the same as Martial Arts. No, they can't do it for real, but they CAN simulate reality to a great degree. They are always on the lookout for new ways to improve that simulation, as are skiled reality based fighters. They work under challenging conditions where emotions run high.

Unlike 99.9% of Karate, incluing you.

[nolimitskarate]

The do more, but I don't know about all their training. The point with them is the same as Martial Arts. No, they can't do it for real, but they CAN simulate reality to a great degree. They are always on the lookout for new ways to improve that simulation, as are skiled reality based fighters. They work under challenging conditions where emotions run high.

Unlike 99.9% of Karate, incluing you.

Correct - the idea is to work with the tools that you have and simulate reality as much as possible. I have stated that I am always looking for more and better ways to train (one of the reasons I joined this board.) -

I am glad to know that you have trained at 99.9% of all karate schools and are therefore qualified to speak about them so definitavely. You seem to be very good at making broad, sweeping statements - and I even agree with some of your arguments (did I really say that? ).

You do not seem willing to consider even the most remote possiblity that another point of view may have merit - once you close your mind to alternative possiblities you stop learning and stagnate - perhaps it's time for you to WAKE UP.

[Thai Bri]

I did wake up. I have been where you are. I have trained Kata, air punching, ticky sparring etc. I saw that ALL the evidence pointed to the fact that mainstream Karate is a sham, suitable for pencil necks and old ladies - with 9 year old Black Belts and a proud record of no wins in an full contact competitions with just about anyone.

To labour the analogy of the Frearms Officers training. Mainstream Karate trains without bullets and without guns. People point the gun into imaginary targets, shout "bang ang" and then convince themselves that they can shoot for real.

Bang bang, you're dead.

[nolimitskarate]

Originally posted by Thai Bri
I did wake up. I have been where you are. I have trained Kata, air punching, ticky sparring etc. I saw that ALL the evidence pointed to the fact that mainstream Karate is a sham, suitable for pencil necks and old ladies - with 9 year old Black Belts and a proud record of no wins in an full contact competitions with just about anyone.

Point made - but not all "mainstream" schools are the same. I agree that there are alot of $$$ sharks out there - but you can't judge all schools by that same standard.

I'll concede that "reality" based training, in the end is more effective for street situations - but I also believe that the basics are an essential starting place.

Point in fact, I am in the process of researching some different programs that can be incorporated into my program (for intance F.A.S.T. self defense) your take on those?

BTW - I think pencil necks, 9 year olds and old ladies have a right to defend themselves to ..............

[Thai Bri]

Exactly. So why teach them shit and give them false confidence?

[IPON]

Originally posted by Thai Bri
Now shadowboxing. That is a different matter. That utilises visualisation and involves freedom of technique and movement. That CAN be useful to an extent. Though I'd still be hitting things if I had the equipment available.

Bri I understand when you say freedom of movemnet, but are you saying it is not common to visiualize with katas?? I visualize becuase that is the only way they can make sense to me. I also ask specifically what will this move attack or block. Just curious never thought about what other people did until you mentioned that part.

[brokenelbow]

To labour the analogy of the Frearms Officers training. Mainstream Karate trains without bullets and without guns. People point the gun into imaginary targets, shout "bang ang" and then convince themselves that they can shoot for real.

Hmmm, I guess I better stop those dry fire excercises I've been doing all these years.

Now shadowboxing. That is a different matter. That utilises visualisation and involves freedom of technique and movement.

I've seen alot of guys who have freedom of technique and movement. They sucked. Arms flailing, tripping over their own feet. If you don't know how to move all the freedom means nothing.

[nolimitskarate]

Originally posted by Thai Bri
Exactly. So why teach them shit and give them false confidence?

I don't consider the confidence I instill in my students “false confidence”. I have a student that I was working with just last night that is the perfect example of this – when he started he wouldn’t even look up from the floor. This did not apply just in my class – but at school, social events, etc…..

As I watched him practice last night I realized that the way he carries himself now is far superior to the was he was when he started – eyes up, meeting his classmates on even ground and with confidence.

Last night we were simulating different situations and he, as well as the other advanced students were able to extract themselves from the situations with great efficiency.

Does this mean that they can win in the street against every given situation? No.

Does this mean that they are better equipped to defend themselves they were before they entered the MAs? I believe so.


-------------------/ Respect