My Take on Karate

[ryanhall]

NLK,
Firstoff, fighting 3 v 1 should be impossible if the three are any good at all. Even if they aren't, if they're even of average to below average strength, they should kick the shite out of the other guy. This isn't open to debate. Fighting two somebodys who know even a bit of what I do would probably not go well for me (or anyone else). Note that I said fighting. You should never have to stand and FIGHT three people, as your ass should be high tailing it out of there after hopefully hitting one of them with a pre-emptive strike. If you want to do it as a drill, that's fine. However, the way you describe it makes it shound like crap. In reality, the three would swarm the one, put him on the ground, and apply the boots to him. What technique are you going to use to avoid that one?

Also, it is very good that your student was able to defend herself. Congratulations to her. However, there is a difference between a student grabbing at her (arm probably) and someone considerably larger actually attacking her with intent to harm her. In the former case, she was playing tackle while the student was playing touch, so to speak. That is, unless he was violently trying to escape her hold so that he could beat her to death--I find this unlikely--he was pretty much letting her hold him.

[nolimitskarate]

Originally posted by IPON


I understand Bri Point and I think you are both correct in terms of what each is arguing.

No limits: yes karate, MAs in general, (even a McDojo) are great for instilling confidence. Women, children, handicapped, the average joe. The personal/emotional, health, and life benefits of any MA are numerous agreed. And then there is the self defense aspect...Enter the Thai Bri.

Thai Bri: indictes that non direct and pointless training can instill false confidence and he is correct. Why is it false? If someone where to us these techniques, generally speaking, they would not be able to apply them in a real fight or life threatening situation. I can't tell you how many time I seen a TKD guy get KO'd by a boxer or just a street fighter. The TKD stylist is certainly better equipped with techniques, but they think that what work in tournaments or in the dojang translates to practical use in the street or SD situation.

So in the sense that peopel think that can really defend themselves when they in fact probably cannot does instill false confidence.

Ipon - I agree with what you are saying about self defense - that is why I don't limit what we're doing - I'm not arguing those that thos training methods are not important - my point that it still does not discredit the benefits of the other. It is important to know how to properly do your teqhniques, it is important to have mental strength and balance as well as the physical.

Additionally, as far as the confidence piece goes, there is a confidence that comes from just being able to accomplish something that you didn't think you could do (form, techqnique, whatever) - that may apply to other aspects of your life - "Hey, if I try I know I can do this." - school, careeer, etc..

As far as confidence and application in street fighting - I DO agree with Thai Bri that other training methods apply to this (thus the mixed style) - we train for thos situations to.

But we don't limit ourselves either - I see the value of both and so we do both.

We are not training just to be street fighters - we train for different reasons - some folks want to just get in better shape, etc .........../ Respect.

[IPON]

Originally posted by nolimitskarate
It is important to know how to properly do your teqhniques, it is important to have mental strength and balance as well as the physical.

there is a confidence that comes from just being able to accomplish something that you didn't think you could do (form, techqnique, whatever) - that may apply to other aspects of your life - "Hey, if I try I know I can do this." - school, careeer, etc..

I agree 100%. Basically for training, you have to crawl before you walk

[nolimitskarate]

Originally posted by ryanhall
NLK,
Note that I said fighting. You should never have to stand and FIGHT three people, as your ass should be high tailing it out of there after hopefully hitting one of them with a pre-emptive strike. If you want to do it as a drill, that's fine. However, the way you describe it makes it shound like crap. In reality, the three would swarm the one, put him on the ground, and apply the boots to him. What technique are you going to use to avoid that one?

Exactly - get the hell out - but you have to get away from the rush and not get taken to the groun first. I think alot of the disagreement may stem from terminology - i.e. fighting - your right - I would never encourage somebody to stand toe to toe with three thugs and try to take them on - the objective is most certainly to get away.

The Idea behind the drill is to get a feel for what it might feel like to be confronted by that type of situation (obviously we can't simulate 100%) - if you get taken down what are you going to do to get back up? Away? What type of techniques will give you a chance to make a break - what if one guy grabs you in a bear hug and the other is beating on you?

What does it take to fight your way out? - that is the purpose of the drill.

[nolimitskarate]

Also, it is very good that your student was able to defend herself. Congratulations to her. However, there is a difference between a student grabbing at her (arm probably) and someone considerably larger actually attacking her with intent to harm her. In the former case, she was playing tackle while the student was playing touch, so to speak. That is, unless he was violently trying to escape her hold so that he could beat her to death--I find this unlikely--he was pretty much letting her hold him.

Don't know the severity - but the point is she was able to respond to a given situation in an approriatte manner, without losing her cool.

Hopefully whe will never have to find out about the other case - but if she does - I believe she has a right to feel confident that she will not lose her cool in that situation either - and will be able to respond with the approriate force to extract herself from the situation.

[nolimitskarate]

Originally posted by IPON


Again this realtes to the false confidence Bri referred. Are the studdents really going 80% with committment which means if they are realistically blocking and punching/kicking, etc. So, if a punch is thrown and a block is missed the student will have a sore jaw in teh moring. If they are pulling punches prior to hittng how can someone know they can really effectively punch or block.
80% is very nearly full speed so it would be 3 people rushing at the same time near full speed so if this is not a MA movie I would expect an anmbulance for the attackee

Again no flame, I am just trying to clarify so of this so we can move to better discussion.

Ipon - valid question - point infact - if they miss the block they do walk out with a sore jaw (or ribs, legs, arms, etc..). - thank goodness for Tiger Balm .......

As an attacker in this drill I have walked out with black eyes, a bloody nose (should have been wearing a face cage), bruised ribs etc......

Monday Night I grabbed a younger student in a bear hug and was rewarded with a bruised thigh from an elbow to the top of the leg - enough force to take me down and let him get away (not a three on 1 drill - but the point about force applies).

Again - we are not trying to put each other in the hospital but I want them to get a good feel for what they might have to work against.

BTW - I have been a defender in a 6 on 1 drill - mostly trying to run and cover my a** - only lasted about 15 seconds but boy is it eye opening ..........

[nolimitskarate]

Originally posted by IPON
No Limits: another quest what is the name of the style you teach.
I assume karate. Is it issenRyu as the foundation with techiques from the other arts you learned incporated or have you rcreated a separate system

Ipon - Isshin-Ryu is my first style and perhaps my favorite - but not primarily what I am teaching - most of the Karate I'm teaching is Kempo (and this is what the belt advancements are primarily based on) - although I like to mix in a good bit of the Isshin-Ryu theory and practice.

We also mix in Judo and Jiu-Jitsu and others to balance the training and provide further self defense ability.

We draw on Aikidos throwing and joint manipulation techniques as well.

Also - Kickboxing.

It's really a mixed system.

[IPON]

Originally posted by nolimitskarate
thank goodness for Tiger Balm .......

I only like the Tager balm Linament....and hey don't forget White Flower -LOL

I agree train as close to reality without killing each other that is the way I was trainind in JJJ and I think it should be all MA training. I am glad that you have a lot of students that are not scared off by this type of training. I think that ios part of the training problem in the US lawsuits, and people unwilling to trainn hard so the instructor has to decrease the standards of the school to accomodate both. I see this in a lot of schools, though some schools may only do this up to maybe a green belt and at that point you have proven your dedication or non wussiness and the real training starts

[nolimitskarate]

Originally posted by IPON

I am glad that you have a lot of students that are not scared off by this type of training. I think that ios part of the training problem in the US lawsuits, and people unwilling to trainn hard so the instructor has to decrease the standards of the school to accomodate both. I see this in a lot of schools, though some schools may only do this up to maybe a green belt and at that point you have proven your dedication or non wussiness and the real training starts

Unfortanately, I don't have "alot" of students (depends on what you mean by alot) - luckily this is not my primary income - but I do have enough, and the ones that stick it out are dedicated.

[nolimitskarate]

I am glad that you have a lot of students that are not scared off by this type of training. I think that ios part of the training problem in the US lawsuits, and people unwilling to trainn hard so the instructor has to decrease the standards of the school to accomodate both. I see this in a lot of schools, though some schools may only do this up to maybe a green belt and at that point you have proven your dedication or non wussiness and the real training starts

There are schools around me that have 200 to 600 students - this great from a business standpoint - but I really think it limits the amount of "quality" time the students can get - I would think it would be very difficult to get quality training in this situation - I would rather have less students, that are dedicated, and give them personal attention during training.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Somehow if you become second in a MMA tournament you are ineffective. But according to Bri's thoughts, anybody but Mike Tyson is ineffective, please go to the gym of Tyson and you will see that all your MT training is useless and ineffective
Come on man
No limits is right, just because someone else is better doesn't mean you are bad, no matter how freaked up your mind it, this is not true
Just because some else scores an A+, doesn't mean that you are bead with an A-

[IPON]

Originally posted by nolimitskarate
Unfortanately, I don't have "alot" of students (depends on what you mean by alot) - luckily this is not my primary income - but I do have enough, and the ones that stick it out are dedicated.

I should have just said students. The type of training you have is the exception to the rule and as a result you will not have many students. MA like driving is a privilage. This may sound like traditional mumbo jumbo but I really think people should have to earn theier keep and be challenged not everyone deserves to be a BB or even green or blue.

The large schools and franchises do not care about the quality of the studnts just quantity. Tapes and book are fine for exposure and information but when they say you can earn you BB from watching a tape that's where I have a problem with quality.

[Thai Bri]

Originally posted by Toudiyama[NL]
Somehow if you become second in a MMA tournament you are ineffective. But according to Bri's thoughts, anybody but Mike Tyson is ineffective, please go to the gym of Tyson and you will see that all your MT training is useless and ineffective
Come on man
No limits is right, just because someone else is better doesn't mean you are bad, no matter how freaked up your mind it, this is not true
Just because some else scores an A+, doesn't mean that you are bead with an A-

Talk about putting words in someones mouth? Wheer did I say anything at all like that? But Tyson would get in the region of an A+ at his best. Groundwork trained or not. And he didn't do it by practising Kata. And, for your information, I'm not comparing NLK and his students to someone merely getting an A-. On the current evidence I rate them Z-.

NLK - You use your intellect against yourself. I love the bit where you start saying "but they don't all do it for self defence, some do it for fitness......" I've seen that argument a million times. It goes like this:-

We teach effective self defence.
OK, not all of it is effective, we like to draw from different styles.
Some of it is effective.
It might be effective.
We don't want self defence anyway.


Then, when the nasty man goes away, the man with all those nasty and inconvenient arguments, you go back to the top "We teach effective self defence".

Man, you're full of sheeeeeeeeeeiiiiiiit.

Just get in the Thai and BJJ gym and train. You sound l;ike the guy who can "prove" a bee can't fly. But you won't go outside in case you see one.

[Psyo]

just out of curiosity, do you not get a lot of injuries in muay thai sparring with it being heavy contact? how regularly does sparring happen?

[Thai Bri]

Thai fighters don't bang away all the time with heavy sparring, though they do do it. Their strength comes from realistic techniques trained with power, on bags and pads. They do not wave their arms and legs about in a pre determined robotic dance.