So what can be done to fix Karate?

[darrianation]

This post was just asking a question. I gave my relatively short take on it. Obviously I didn’t say all the changes I’d make because the post was already getting to long, so I just shot a few things out there.

The question was what would you guys do? What would you think are some good ideas to breathe new life into an old system that is rapidly loosing respect with the younger and more knowledgeable generation? How can we turn ineffectiveness into effectiveness?

Some day I expect to teach and run my own martial arts school. Right now I am just to busy to do so with not enough free evenings. When the opportunity does present itself I will take advantage and do so. I do not want to teach crap. I want my student’s to be successful in their goals rather it be fitness, tournaments, or self-defense. Especially when it comes to self-defense!

So I am trying to pick your brains here and get your ideas. I have done MA for a long time and studied several different styles and systems. I like some things about every art I’ve done and disliked many things. The only ones I have totally liked without complaints are boxing and MT. The rest have good and bad.

The art I envision is one that doesn’t limit the students into: you can only do this and you better not do that. If my students would want to fight from a cat or a back stance they can. I will not make them learn them if they don’t want too. I would teach them a variety of stances and techniques and let them choose which ones they like and are comfortable with and it’s up to them to find out which ones those they like and use them.

Other things I would use to help my students reach their goals and mine for that matter is to develop a process (formula) for success. This formula would be something like this (but not limited to):
1) Physical conditioning.
2) Repetitive practice on basic techniques utilizing various methods to insure proper technique. Such as in front of mirrors, or the instructor for ready recognition of faulty technique and feed back to correct bad technique.
3) Shadow boxing.
4) Partner drills.
5) Bag drills.
6) Bag work.
7) Matt work.
8) Situational sparring.
9) Free sparring.
10) Something like Geoff Thompson’s animal days.

A lot of you guys critiqued my opening post as having some holes. I agree. That’s why I am asking you so I can find the weaknesses in my theory and philosophies so I can better plug those holes. Plus just to get a better idea where you all stand on martial arts and training in general.

I think we all have goals in martial arts however we all don’t have the same goals, and as we get older and hopefully wiser our goals may change. When I first started out in MA way back in the 70’s I had two goals: To show off to my friends and to beat up the older kids who kept picking on me. Soon after I started I discovered tournaments and my goals changed to competition. Now my goals are teaching and effective self-defense. I hope I have been able to convey the basic outline I have to you.

I think there are many ways of achieving this. There are many styles and systems to get us there. Some better than others some take longer than others. Some might even fall short. My way may not be your way and you’re way may not be my way, but which ever way we choose it should get us there and if it doesn’t then we need to dump it and find another way.

[kengar]

I think your heading in the right direction. Teaching down the road is an idea in my head and I have about the same thoughts as what you posted. Good luck in finding your way.


Ken

[darrianation]

Toudiyama[NL]-

quote
“Instead of your weapons sparring I would suggest sparring against a weapon”

I would do both.

quote
“Collored belt were introduced to satisfy western students
Japanese only have white, brown and black”

I like a three tiered system. Beginners, intermediate, and advanced. I think a ranking system should reflect this. Maybe something like this a whit belt, green belt, and black belt.

quote
“Static stances do not excist, what we are learned are snapshots in time
But to say only one stance is just nor realistic, I wouldn't stay in the same stance if someone tries to take me down, would you?”

I like the front stance or a MT style stance. One in which offers good mobility without sacrificing either offense or defense. This would be required to learn. Other stances like a wrestler’s stance, cat, side, back stance etc I would show them and allow my student’s to use them if they like but not require them.

quote
“Insteead learn to defend against other arts like grappling or MT or boxing”

Any self-defense system needs to be well rounded and creative.


Thai bri-

quote
“Train more like Thai Boxers. Contact, hard, impact”

Oh yea!

quote
“Incorporate "gutterfighting" techniques, like strikes to eyes/throat kicks to knees etc (training them on the pads and bags, as well as using protective equipment for some light contact work on partners.)”

Most definitely!

quote
“Absolutely throw out the ridiculous "Karate Newa Sense Nasha" concept ("In Karate we never strike the first blow"). Instead adopt the mentality of "Hit first, hit fast, hit hard, hit last".

I totally agree. They teach this shit in every karate school I have trained in. It will get you killed.

quote
“Throw out all the high kicks. Throw out all the large blocking movements.”

Yep you are batting a thousand TB.

I do think high kicks should be taught but not overly emphasized and their limitation made known. I don’t think they are good for self-defense but give the student more options.

quote
“Bin point sparring. It trains you to throw blows that don't hurt against people who are an unrealistic distance away.”

I wouldn’t gear my teaching towards tournament karate but if my students wanted to compete they are most welcomed too.

Brokenelbow- Ditto!

Irrigator-If you think nothing is wrong with karate then you are in the minority.

Cross-You are right it wouldn’t be karate anymore. Traditional arts are base on tradition and lineage so they aren’t too flexible. Changes in the systems will result in a new system that is why most traditional arts are so stagnant.

Kengar-Thanks, and good luck to you.

[brokenelbow]

darrian,
The simplist thing to start with is what do you want to use your karate for. I've noticed differences in how people approach their training, those who take karate as a combative train it very differently than those who train for sport or as a self improvment activity.

brokenelbow - well done for attaining your goals. I bet I'd kick yer butt though! Puddemup! Puddemup!!!!

Thai B, Is that the young me vs the old you, the young you vs the old me, the young you vs the young me or just two geezers going at it.

[Thai Bri]

Well, I'll be the young me in body, and the old me in experience.

And you have to sit on a commode, pissing yourself, whilst reading "Pensioners Weekly" and fumbling with your colostomy bag.

I can't say fairer than that!

[irrigator]

I guess what im thinking is that you asking the wrong questions. when you start off with a premise based on this question "What would you think are some good ideas to breathe new life into an old system that is rapidly loosing respect with the younger and more knowledgeable generation?" from darrianation, i just cant see how you are going to end up with a sound conclusion. It occurs to me that while i have been fortunate in my associations, that is, in finding really excellent instruction, others have not been simmilarly blessed.
Ultimately, id say that what, if anything, is wrong with karate in general is that so few know enough to teach it well, and so many are so quick to judge teh whole of the system based on so limited an experience with that system.

[darrianation]

Irrigator
You are right to a point. In this discussion we totally left karate behind. We made a new formless art here that is distinctly different from karate. However I think this discourse sums up how others and I feel, we have become frustrated with it. If you read through posts in other threads you’ll see others feel this way too.

I think you can make karate more usable for self-defense without changing it. Starting with the instructors they need to know what it is they need to teach. #1 is mind set. Karate in general teaches no first strike, self-defense is controlling the attacker without serious injury, at least when it comes to the self-defense part of the class that is what they generally say. In the non-self-defense portions of class the say one strike one kill, a bit of a mixed message.

I think you can take some of the aspects that have been talked about here in this and other threads and apply them without changing the art. Others will definitely change it.

Karate is cultural based and reflects the cultures in which they came from. Karate is tradition based that means you need to keep tradition. I have a friend who is a carpenter he builds homes in the old fashion way (1800’s) with old fashion tools. It takes him longer to build a home and they build only one home at a time. Some people like their homes built like this, and my friend really enjoys what he does. He takes great pride in what he does. Now if you made him use modern tools then you’ll have changed the way he builds homes and will longer satisfy his traditional approach of building homes. However modern technique in home building is faster and cheaper and can be every bit the quality of the the old fashion way.

Karate is like this, using old fashion ideologies, methodologies, and philosophies. If that’s your bag man then great. However we are not just separated by time, but by culture as well. There is nothing wrong with this except when you try to apply it to our modern society and culture, it doesn’t quite fit.

The crux is and let me give you an example:

The first thing my instructor does when a new prospective student walks in the door (most of my instructors have done this) is to tout two things one: physical fitness, and the other self-defense. Now fitness is right on but self-defense? I think that SD is a good marketing ploy to recruit new students but it’s just that a marketing ploy. The problem is these instructors are not just using it as a ploy, which is dangerous in it’s self but they actually believe it, which is even more dangerous. You cannot apply those traditional and cultural differences into our modern society today, it doesn’t work.

It’s fine to study these arts if you are looking for fun, fitness, sport, or a cultural experience, but not if you are looking for self-defense.

This is the root of the problem I have with traditional MA’s. They claim something they are not, practical at self-defense! If they would just drop this claim I would be fine with it, or at least have a disclaimer stating if you want self-defense there are better systems out there (mordern and progressive). I think that these instructors instill false confidence in their students and this is a tragedy.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

I always told people who wanted to do Karate as a means of SD, it is better to carry some kind of (legal ) weapon or pepperspray
It's way faster and less efford than learning a MA

I have found as an assistant that people who did start it for that reason, didn't like to spar so MT and arts like that wouldn't be an alternative for them

Luckely it is a minoruty that want's to do MA for SD in my country

[darrianation]

I agree with you Toudiyama . It's been a journey let me tell you. It' been tough and my emotions over karate has run the gambit (high and low, and every thing in between). I think I have finally settled something with myself.

My conclusion on Karate and traditional martial arts.

After studying, pondering, and consulting with others for a long time now I have come to the conclusion that there is nothing wrong with karate or other traditional martial arts. They are fine. They are meant to be traditional and therefore they are. However I still do not take back anything I’ve said about it. I stand by my words!

The only thing that needs fixing is they are still bad at teaching self-defense. I just think (now) it has more to do with the instructors than the art itself (as well as marketing). This problem is systemic among traditional MA’s and can be corrected to a degree by individual instructors without changing the art. So why won’t these instructors stop being monkey’s pull their heads out of their assess and educate themselves. Learn better and more effective ways to teach SD in an effective practical manor. This can be done without changing the art. I am sure of that. They just need to change their approach and come at with an eye towards proper application, and mental preparedness. If the instructors are unwilling to change their acts about self-defense then they need to stop claiming they teach self-defense.

All the crying about kata suck (and they do) has nothing to do with SD, it won’t make you better at it but it can’t make you worse either as long you make up the time lost doing kata on something productive towards SD.

[brokenelbow]

Forget about the self defense thing.

"The only thing that needs fixing is they are still bad at teaching self-defense." Darren no offense but you're falling into the same trap. Self defense is not something you learn as a separate curriculum, it's a situation when you're using what you've learned. The same set of skills should be applicable in kumite, self defense or a more aggressive situation. Part of the problem is that many instructors separate karate into pieces; working on making kata and technique look powerful, learning how to break, sparring, self defense, I'll leave off combatives since it's mostly a dead part of karate. What needs to be done is have more people who are taught karate as a system where each part reinforces the whole. A system that teaches you how to harm to whatever degree is required and the responsibility to handle that knowlage.

[darrianation]

brokenelbow I agree with you on your points.

Karate has all the techniques. If you can parry punch a worthy opponent in sparring you should be able to it in a parking lot (of course there is more to SD than this). I think it comes down to fight psychology it's just not there in karate. This is the individual instructor needs to step up. Far to many don't understand it and don't seem to want to try.

I do karate because I have fun doing it, and there is nothing else where I live.
That is reason enough for me right now.

[brokenelbow]

I think it comes down to fight psychology it's just not there in karate. This is the individual instructor needs to step up. Far to many don't understand it and don't seem to want to try.

I don't get where karate doesn't have fight psychology, it may not be presented in a Western manner but it's there. Okinawans were very good fighters as attested to by Europeans visiting the Islands around the turn of the last century. Even Shotokan was very militaristic before the end of WWII, and borrowed much of it's philosophy from kenjutsu where one strike one kill comes from. Also there is the concept of kime. Many American karate instructors don't really know karate and were taught in a half ass manner or were just chasing after a black belt.

[Thai Bri]

This is where you're missing something. Something crucial. The psychlogy of fighting is far more than coming from a war-like culture, or having an aggressive attitude. The psychology of fighting involves many things, such as:-

- understanding and exploiting adrenalin, in both yourself and your opponent
- fear control
- pre fight rituals
- dialogue and deception
- verbal judo/conversation management.

There's information available about things like this on this site - www.geoffthompson.com as well as books and videos for sale.

At the moment there is a whole spere about which you know litle about. No offence, neither did I until the last couple of years. But if you want to maximise your chances of surviving a street fight (or, better still, avoiding it) this is the place to go.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Problem with a lot of MA is that people think they are capable of teaching just because they have a Black Belt
Appart from the fact that teaching is a profession that has to be learned
A 1st degree Black Belt often doesn't even understand all the principles yet
This is not just in the US but worldwide

And the fact that a lot of americans seemed to be high grade black belts already in the 70's and 80's
8th 9th and 10th dans weren't an exception
graded either by themself or by their friends
Can you imagine that Elvis was a 8th dan Kenpo Karate?
this has devaluated the belt to a large extent

People creating their own style after being stylehopping for a couple of years, never staying long enough to really understand anything ( 2 or 3 months at most)

Tom Harinck the instructor of the most famous Chakuriki MT/Kickboxing Dojo in Amsterdam was an orange belt in Kyokushin when he started his own style
the style doesn't excist anymore because he switched to MT lateron
But still he has papers claiming he is a 7th dan karate
Problem is that these are signed by someone who already claims grades don't mean shite to him ( but still claims a 10th dan as well as being a mongol prince)
The guy who graded him had also been a member of the same kyokushin dojo but never wanted to spar
You can imagine we take his stories about being a mersanary(spelling) in Korea as utter nonsense

Tom Harinck is a succesfull teacher though so you don't have to be a very good Ma yourself to produce good fighters

And the other way around is certainly true, just because someone is a good fighter doesn't make him or her a good teacher/instructor/coach

[Toudiyama[NL]]

This is where you're missing something. Something crucial. The psychlogy of fighting is far more than coming from a war-like culture, or having an aggressive attitude. The psychology of fighting involves many things, such as:-

- understanding and exploiting adrenalin, in both yourself and your opponent
- fear control
- pre fight rituals
- dialogue and deception
- verbal judo/conversation management.

There's information available about things like this on this site - www.geoffthompson.com as well as books and videos for sale.

At the moment there is a whole spere about which you know litle about. No offence, neither did I until the last couple of years. But if you want to maximise your chances of surviving a street fight (or, better still, avoiding it) this is the place to go.

My former teacher has a company giving instruction in dealing with aggression
mainly for institutes like mental institutions or things like that
they are dealing with these points you mention, only a small part of the instruction they give is physical excerse,
And then still, you can't just smack a mental patient in the face even if he is attacking you, that's just not done

neither can you kick the shit out of a client at the social security office just because he is agressive ( you want to but can't)
so the points you mentioned are even more important