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So what can be done to fix Karate?

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  • So what can be done to fix Karate?

    There has been much debate here on karate, as well as other traditional arts in general and what role they play or how effective they are. So I decided to get it out here and get a debate going so we can get it all hashed out.

    A lot of people put Karate down and mostly rightfully so. I would think at some point in history that karate was an effective martial art. It surely has survived for a long time but was it because it was such an effective martial art? No! It has survived because it has under gone certain changes that have allowed it to survive. It was introduced into the elementary schools in Okinawa and in Japan as a childhood exercise. It found a nitch in the Japanese universities as a sport. Changes were made to allow for safety and scoring. Some say it was watered down. I don’t think so, I think the emphases were changed and the more lethal techniques were less emphasized but they are still there.

    Then there were organizations like the JKA that sprung up all over the place that vied for control and the top honors to carry on the tradition. The good ol’ boys club wants to protect their territory. They want to maintain control of it and get the credit for it. They don’t want anyone getting in their way, even if it means the product is worth next to nothing they will still protect it at all costs.

    So why do I do Karate? It may seem a cop out to some of you but I love doing martial arts. Where I live, a small town in the middle of nowhere there isn’t much option. Besides it helps keep my skills sharp and it gives me partners to work against. That’s it. It beats practicing by myself all the time.

    So what can be done to fix Karate?

    I would say to hell with tradition, however I would respect its history, but I would not allow myself to be shackled by it.

    Tradition is effectiveness worst enemy. However with out it there would be no Karate, but all the systems that we practice today have been changed in some way or another by their founders, or by different organizations or by the students themselves. Funakoshi changed what he learned from his teachers, Funakoshi’s son changed things even more, and the JKA changed stuff too. Funakoshi wouldn’t recognize Shotokan today. Same with so many other founders of other styles and systems. So why can’t we do the same?

    If we could change karate to make it better, more effective what would you do?

    In the world according to me I would (for starters):

    1) Do away with kata, replace them with combinations like what is done in MT. Or at least make kata optional and never make them a requirement for belt promotions. Kata may be kept only to pay homage to the history of karate.

    2) I would teach only the basics, remember there are no advanced techniques only advanced katas.

    3) Do away with belt tests accept the black belt test. I would only test the black belts so it will add some stress and anxiety to the student being tested. I think an instructor should know if his students know their techniques and how their sparring rates so why test them? The teacher should already know if the student’s knowledge and abilities are good enough for the next belt.

    • I am not a big fan of belts but I can see there’re usefulness in recruiting new students and as a good student retention strategy.

    4) A black belt test will consist of three elements free sparring, weapons sparring, and self-defense.

    A: Free sparring will consist of 3, 3 minute rounds (or what ever). Each round the student would have to go up against a fresh opponent. The things I would want to see; can the student recognize mistakes and openings, and take advantage of these on a consistent bases? Can he spar in a smooth rhythmic fashion? Is he fluid?

    B: Weapons, no weapons katas, just full contact weapons sparring using practical weapons like an eskrima stick or knife, or both (using protective gear of course).The thing I would look for are the same things I look for in free sparring.

    C) Self-defense. I would have at least three other students around the examinee. The examinee will not know who, when, or with what he will be attacked with or in what manner. For example I’ll have a student talking to him while another attacks from behind with a bear hug or anything else I decide. Another scenario would be talking to him then sucker punch him, or have someone distracting him then have someone else shoot in for a double leg takedown. If he is unsuccessful at countering the take down then have second student step in and stomp him (see what the testee can do). The scenarios are limitless pretty much just be creative. I am not looking for anything pretty or sharp technique. What I want to see is if the techniques he uses (he is not told what techniques to use) are effective. Did they work? If the student meets these three criteria he gets his black belt. If not he can retry the part or parts he failed in a few (2 or 3) months. Until then he continues to wear his brown belt.

    5) Incorporate other strategies and techniques from other people and styles that have been proven to work. I would not be afraid to barrow from other arts. I would throw in some throws, and some ground fighting, JJ joint locks and BJJ arm bars, escapes and releases, etc. Also I like Geoff Thompson’s animal days. I would implement something like that into my curriculum.

    • I wouldn’t get too carried away with the ground fighting though just enough so my students could survive if a confrontation did go to the ground.

    6) Use only one stance. The stance you would use to fight in. I would allow other stances to suite what the student is most comfortable in but other students would not be required to learn or perform them. No punching from the hips and other crap like that.

    7) Clinches, knees, and elbows a must and the MT shin kick, oh yea baby.

    These are the things I would do. If some of them fail to work I would dump them and find something that did. I would do other things too but this is enough to get started. I know this would end Karate as we know it but this would be the perfect MA for me. Of course I realize that martial arts mean so many different things to so many different people and we all take martial arts training for different reasons. Things I despise are wholly embraced by others. So, definitely one size does not fit all.


    I know if we all did what we all wanted then there would ten million new martial arts systems out there, some will be good, some will be bad. So this really wouldn’t end the debate, the debate would go on and on forever.

    So, I’ll still ask the question. What would you guys do to make Karate better or more functional?

  • #2
    It sounds alot like Kyokushin style, but with more modern methods. Start your own school, man!

    Comment


    • #3
      Ashihara Karate's Kata are like combinations, they look the same with or without oponent

      Do away with this walking basics

      There are no real advanced techniques and most are just variations on other technique

      Instead of your waepons sparring I would suggest sparring against a weapon

      Collored belt were introduced to satisfy western students
      Japanese only have white, brown and black


      Static stances do not excist, what we are learned are snapshots in time
      But to say only one stance is just nor realistic, I wouldn't stay in the same stance if someone tries to take me down, would you?
      But I wouldn't be so shortminded like the JKA peole nagging about a foot placed an inch more to the outside than they want
      Stances should be taught but they should be personal and free, not rigid

      Selfdefeence, do not know how other schools do that but I think defending against any Karate technique, isn't selfdefence to begin with, that can be covered in other excercises
      Insteead learn to defend against other arts like grappling or MT or boxing
      For that you do have to train these techniques, preferably with the same intension ( kickingshield didn't last a long time)

      Punching from the hip part of your point should be changed into punching from a total retracted position or something like it, some styles punch from the armpit in basics, some inbetween
      But very few do so in Kumite
      But I think we get rid of that by not doing the walking basics

      As for one step and 3 step sparring, I have a little anecdote on now opinions about something can differ greatly between schools and styles
      In the requirements it stated jiyu sanbon Kumite or free 3 step sparring
      Shotokan people interpert it like doing the same static sheit
      We would move like in sparring and the oponent would al of a sudden do 3 different techniques, noting pre-arranged, attacks like in normal sparring
      Actually Wado as far as I know doesn't have the 1 and 3 steps, we have to do those because of influence of other styles and a harmonised black belt requirements
      We do them because Shotokan does them and Shotokan doesn't have it's own Kumite like Wado or Kyokushin ( Goju allso I believe)


      But the easiest change would be to change the intension and mindset at which the prearanged sparring is done
      e.g. In Kihon kumite the second attack should folow the first strait away, no stop like it is done by most Wado practitioners
      Everything should flow more
      And only thing about the stances should be that they are balanced and doing the job

      Comment


      • #4
        Move more like Thai Boxers. Fluid, effective, alive.

        Train more like Thai Boxers. Contact, hard, impact.

        Incorporate "gutterfighting" techniques, like strikes to eyes/throat kicks to knees etc (training them on the pads and bags, as well as using protective equipment for some light contact work on partners.)

        Forget work against thin air, unless its shadow boxing for warming up purposes. If you have things and people to hit, hit 'em.

        Emphasize people being able to do techniques in their own way, rather than the "you must have your foot here" mentality.

        Absolutely throw out the ridiculous "Karate Newa Sense Nasha" concept ("In Karate we never strike the first blow"). Instead adopt the mentality of "Hit first, hit fast, hit hard, hit last".

        Train pre confrontation issues, such as awareness/avoidance, verbal judo, fence, pre emptive strike.

        Throw out all the high kicks. Throw out all the large blocking movements. Throw out ANYTHING other than what is known to be effective in the street. Have a small syllabus of techniques that have a high rate of application, rather than trying to have a different strike for each different situation.

        Bin point sparring. It trains you to throw blows that don't hurt against people who are an unrealistic distance away.

        Bin Kata.

        Work on strikes towards people who are behind you, at the side of you etc. Some techniques are great for this - like side stomp kicks, horizontal axe hands, back elbows etc.

        Most of all, bin the stubborn insistence on being "Traditional". It reinforces bad habits and poor training methods, whilst convincing you that you are somehow being noble and preserving something valuable. You aren't. Karate was meant to be a fighting art. Why preserve the bits that don't work? The world changes, so change with it. And forget the years you spent with shite. Just shrug your shoulders and move onwards and upwards.


        Or you could just keep regurgitating the shite that has been taught to you all these years, tying yourself into knots by claiming that robotic movements are somehow mysteriously preparing you for a life or death fight.

        Comment


        • #5
          Fixing karate... Get rid of the kickboxing mentallity and switch to combatives, but still spar weekly at the very least.

          6) Use only one stance. The stance you would use to fight in. I would allow other stances to suite what the student is most comfortable in but other students would not be required to learn or perform them. No punching from the hips and other crap like that.
          One stance? IMO your premise will do nothing but damage karate even more. Stances are things that are moved into, used and then immediatly moved out of as you move into a more advantagous position for your next attack.

          7) Clinches, knees, and elbows a must and the MT shin kick, oh yea baby.
          Clinches are great in the ring but lock you up as well as your opponent. While in the clinch you can't see or react to what else may be going on around you. Knees and elbows are already there as is the shin as a striking surface. Thai kicks are great unless you're in a restricted space.

          Move more like Thai Boxers. Fluid, effective, alive.
          Train more like Thai Boxers. Contact, hard, impact.
          Agree somewhat but Thai boxers fight too much on their tippy toes. Great in the ring not so great on uneven surfaces.

          Incorporate "gutterfighting" techniques, like strikes to eyes/throat kicks to knees etc (training them on the pads and bags, as well as using protective equipment for some light contact work on partners.)
          If that isn't there that's some bad karate.

          Forget work against thin air, unless its shadow boxing for warming up purposes. If you have things and people to hit, hit 'em.
          Yup.

          Emphasize people being able to do techniques in their own way, rather than the "you must have your foot here" mentality.
          Yes and no. There are best ways to do a technique but the individuals abilities should be considered.

          Comment


          • #6
            fix karate?

            let me start out by saying that im far from any kind of master. ive studied martial arts some, and philosophy some too. despite my limitations in classroom study, the only thing that ocurs to me upon reading your question "what can be done to fix karate?" is 'what did you miss in your journey that makes you think a fix is necesary?'. to my way of thinking, 'fix' implies that its broken in the first place, to which i can only respond that you are probably mistaking a por teacher for a broken system.
            In america, we suffer a letigious society. This being the case, the introductory levels of many styles have indeed been 'watered down', however, at the advanced levels, the various systems remain dependant upon lineage. that is, one cannot teach what one does not know, thus, one cannot learn from unlearned teachers.
            The common misconception today is that mma competitions negate the experiences, the teachings of the past. this could nto be farther from the truth. while mma competitions are fun and challenging tests of ones various skill sets, they are not combat. combat is the fire that forged teh various traditional styles, and it is simply youthfull arrogance to reject as obsolete the traditional past. arrogance, and ignorance, for one cannot be falsely confident of what one doenst even know he hasnt been taught.

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            • #7
              Yeah, you're right. Theres all those mysterious hidden Karate Masters out there somewhere who are really deadly. Yeah.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Thai Bri
                Yeah, you're right. Theres all those mysterious hidden Karate Masters out there somewhere who are really deadly. Yeah.
                Yeah in the temple together with old active MT boxers

                Comment


                • #9
                  Yeah, you're right. Theres all those mysterious hidden Karate Masters out there somewhere who are really deadly. Yeah.
                  Why not? I know several guys who are and they know even more guys who are, and very few of them have schools or tell people about what they can do. For every Sammy Franco or Paul Vunak tooting their horns their are guys who've done more and know more, that you'll never hear about.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    True that. Its a proven fact that many of them are Leprachauns.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      So if someone isn't hawking video tapes on the internet they don't exists?

                      Just wondering TB, who is teaching you?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Just because you want to believe they exist, it doesn't mean that they actually do. If you want to hold that argument, then prove it. Tell me of someone. Tell me of their training methods. This really is a desperate attempt to hold onto some credibility for Karate.

                        Teaching me? I have trained since the late 1970's, and have had many teachers. My latest "in person" lessons were with Dennis Martin, a guy with a world wide reputation in the Combatives world. He is also a Black Belt in Shotokan Karate, being part of the first wave of trainees when Karate came to the Western world in numbers. Guess what. He's rejected it in the form it was taught. Everyone with a brain has.

                        I've posted my training experience before, but here is a very brief rundown.

                        Shukokai Karate under 3rd Dan (at the time) instruction from Tommy Kwan. He was a first generation instructor qualified by Shukokai legend (and "Double Hip" inventor) Master Shigeru Kimura.

                        Japanese Jiu Jitsu, under Sensei Dave Hodgson. The organisation was called the "World Jiu Jitsu Federation", and boasted being under some top master in Japan. Those claims turned out to be bogus.

                        Wing Chun Kung Fu, under Sifu Samuel Kwok, 2nd generation Yip Man student.

                        Thai Boxing under a guy called Robz Shackerly, trained by Master Ken. One of the most respected and first wave of Thai Boxers in the UK.

                        Bujutsu, a combination of ground fighting and stand up skills, by Sensei Michael Gregory - 4th Dan Karate, Thai Boxing coach (qualifying under Master Toddy, who now works out of LA), and JKD Instructor, qualified under Dan Inosanto himself. Heres his web site www.maxt.co.uk

                        My current influences are, as said, Dennis Marttin, and also other reality based self defence people, like Carl Cestari and Richard Dimitri. But, as regards these last two, I have only trained their methods from video and the written word. I have not (yet) trained with them.

                        I've been about a bit. I've immersed myself in these arts, and have "absorbed what is useful" from them. I have gone through the awful process of jumping outside of my comfort zone, and faced the possibility that the things I was initially taught may not be correct. They weren't. It was hard, but I am so glad that I did it.

                        I was under 20 years of age when I started the martial arts. I worked myself up to incredible fitness levels too, levels that I could not hope to equal today. But the fat old forty year old me could beat that kid half to death without breaking sweat, any day of the week. Because this old guy is wise enough to analyse things, and not swallow bullshit and keep hold of impossible dreams. Liek mysterious Karate-Ka with super human powers.

                        Sorry to ramble. But you did ask. Now wake up and open your eyes. Think with your head, and not your anus.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I was under 20 years of age when I started the martial arts. I worked myself up to incredible fitness levels too, levels that I could not hope to equal today. But the fat old forty year old me could beat that kid half to death without breaking sweat, any day of the week. Because this old guy is wise enough to analyse things, and not swallow bullshit and keep hold of impossible dreams. Liek mysterious Karate-Ka with super human powers.
                          In age I've got you beat by 5 years. I'm not fat and I've reached all of my personel goals that I set for myself so far, but there's always more. If you made some bad choices in life I feel sorry for you. Right now I also could beat the younger me, the Muay Thai, JKD and kali me. Still don't know where you got the "mysterious Karate-Ka with super human powers".

                          Just because you want to believe they exist, it doesn't mean that they actually do. If you want to hold that argument, then prove it. Tell me of someone. Tell me of their training methods. This really is a desperate attempt to hold onto some credibility for Karate.
                          You are too funny. Oh well I'll be training with the wee folk tomorrow night, and I guess one of the wee folk I had lunch with today paid for it out of his pot of gold.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I think if you made all the changes you wanted to you it would be kickboxing, and it wouldnt be called karate anymore.

                            The main thing that would "fix" karate is instructors teaching their students practical applications for the techniques. Because all the techniques are there, the problem is alot of people dont know and arnt taught how to use them.

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                            • #15
                              brokenelbow - well done for attaining your goals. I bet I'd kick yer butt though! Puddemup! Puddemup!!!!

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