Karate ain't so bad

[Nit]

It would appear that it is easy to defend against Sherwinc in a fight, punch him in the head whilst he's drawing circles in the dust.

This is no hollow threat, Sherwinc lets meet up and share knowledge. You show me your convincing circle of movement, I'll show you my right fist.

[Beginner]

This is the most illogical bullshit in the whole thread. Even sherwinc the idiot (Convinced!!!!) has more of a grasp of the subject than you.

It does not develop the "individuals totality", because that is airy fairy sounding meaningless crap.

It does not teach fighting, and the average Karate-ka is worse off than your average street fighter.

And what the fluck does "builds character" mean? ANYTHING can be said to do that.

Whoa, hang on a sec. First up, it is definitely not the most "illogical bull" in the whole thread. And to say sherwinc has more grasp on the subject than I is total violation of human rights.

While you are right that anything (football, karate, muay thai, swimming, etc., etc.) can build character, fact of the matter is it is a Karate thread thus, it is the one being spoken of. That one paragraph that you criticized was meant to make a point to people who bash Karate as a whole. For any martial artist to generalize another art to be far inferior than any other simply shows his (probable) lack of character - his (probable) lack of open mindedness.

Now, I'm not saying Karate has no faults. Having been spread all over the globe like McDee's, it is inevitable that a number of schools would water down the training - not to mention a number of Sensei's may not be "qualified". Like I said, it is something the community of Karate has to correct in the future (hopefully sooner).

I have read a lot of your responses to the thread & although at some times you do sound rude, you do make very valid points. And the fact that a number of posters actually know you & commend on your abilities shows your knowledge of fighting & the martial arts. However, one post I read (I think it was Toudiyama) mentioned how when a Karateka starts to incorporate techniques learned from another art, other people would then say that the person is not anymore doing Karate. C'mon now, a great big number of Karateka's are actually evolving in their craft & let's not hinder Karate's growth by dismissing the evolution as swerving away from Karate.

One thing that I seem to have only realized by now, & this a question for the posters here. It seems that here in the States (I'm not practicing here), Karate concentrates only on Kata & drills. That when sparrings are done (& I guess very few times in a month), everyone is padded up and it is always a point system where tippy tapping becomes a norm. Now I'm not generalizing - I do know a couple of schools in my area are still training hard. Well, this is just what I've gathered so from this thread. Is this the case? And therefore the cause of all these posts?

Back in my country, we do Kata, drills, bag work, makiwara work, tempering (i.e. assuming a straddle stance & Sensei does roundhouse kicks on the sides of the thighs til failure, etc.), sparring, self defense & application of techniques against different arts. My Sensei back then was part of the generation in the 70's wherein schools challenged each other to full contact fighting to see the schools' value. Ergo, our sparring & competition back then were unpadded w/ no gloves. Other techniques aside from the ones smart sherwinc mentioned were takedowns, throws, diving(downward) punches, jumping kicks & locks (although only for a couple of seconds until you deliver a punch, kick or takedown). No control of power was mandated & the only modification they made for competition was that the neck, head & the groin areas are foul. You can imagine how the fighters back then during competition would give each other a foul hit during their bout to "hurt" or psyche each other out (they were given one foul & a warning anyways so might as well use it). Of course currently, there is that faction over there that is concentrated on sport kumite - that w/c is very popular here in the west.

As for sherwinc, Pringles - once you pop, you can't stop.

[darrianation]

Whoa, hang on a sec. First up, it is definitely not the most "illogical bull" in the whole thread. And to say sherwinc has more grasp on the subject than I is total violation of human rights.

While you are right that anything (football, karate, muay thai, swimming, etc., etc.) can build character, fact of the matter is it is a Karate thread thus, it is the one being spoken of. That one paragraph that you criticized was meant to make a point to people who bash Karate as a whole. For any martial artist to generalize another art to be far inferior than any other simply shows his (probable) lack of character - his (probable) lack of open mindedness.

Now, I'm not saying Karate has no faults. Having been spread all over the globe like McDee's, it is inevitable that a number of schools would water down the training - not to mention a number of Sensei's may not be "qualified". Like I said, it is something the community of Karate has to correct in the future (hopefully sooner).

I have read a lot of your responses to the thread & although at some times you do sound rude, you do make very valid points. And the fact that a number of posters actually know you & commend on your abilities shows your knowledge of fighting & the martial arts. However, one post I read (I think it was Toudiyama) mentioned how when a Karateka starts to incorporate techniques learned from another art, other people would then say that the person is not anymore doing Karate. C'mon now, a great big number of Karateka's are actually evolving in their craft & let's not hinder Karate's growth by dismissing the evolution as swerving away from Karate.

One thing that I seem to have only realized by now, & this a question for the posters here. It seems that here in the States (I'm not practicing here), Karate concentrates only on Kata & drills. That when sparrings are done (& I guess very few times in a month), everyone is padded up and it is always a point system where tippy tapping becomes a norm. Now I'm not generalizing - I do know a couple of schools in my area are still training hard. Well, this is just what I've gathered so from this thread. Is this the case? And therefore the cause of all these posts?

Back in my country, we do Kata, drills, bag work, makiwara work, tempering (i.e. assuming a straddle stance & Sensei does roundhouse kicks on the sides of the thighs til failure, etc.), sparring, self defense & application of techniques against different arts. My Sensei back then was part of the generation in the 70's wherein schools challenged each other to full contact fighting to see the schools' value. Ergo, our sparring & competition back then were unpadded w/ no gloves. Other techniques aside from the ones smart sherwinc mentioned were takedowns, throws, diving(downward) punches, jumping kicks & locks (although only for a couple of seconds until you deliver a punch, kick or takedown). No control of power was mandated & the only modification they made for competition was that the neck, head & the groin areas are foul. You can imagine how the fighters back then during competition would give each other a foul hit during their bout to "hurt" or psyche each other out (they were given one foul & a warning anyways so might as well use it). Of course currently, there is that faction over there that is concentrated on sport kumite - that w/c is very popular here in the west.

As for sherwinc, Pringles - once you pop, you can't stop.

Congrats on your school it sounds like you guys train hard. Still something’s missing though. I think your school is more the exception to the rule from what I’ve seen training in several different Karate dojos in 4 different states.

Karate is good for a lot of things and yes even for self-defense but in Karate the way they teach is not optimum for solid self-defense they need to modernize their teaching methodologies. I also believe they don’t address fight Psychology and adrenaline response well enough and need to address issues such as ground fighting practical knife and stick fighting not the traditionally weapons and teaching methods either but in a modern way that truly applies to the anatomy and psychology of a street attack.

I’m not putting Karate down. I practice Karate but I also see it for what it is. Karate for far to long has been taught and practiced like an elementary school exercise and a sport that it has forgotten that it once was designed for combat. It is based in tradition and culture and has a hard time fitting in today’s chaotic and hostile world. It’s almost like trying to put a square peg into a round hole, you can do it but it takes a very large hammer (meaning if you practice long enough and hard enough then you should do okay in self-defense). However if you want just self-defense there are better systems out there.

[Beginner]

Congrats on your school it sounds like you guys train hard. Still something’s missing though. I think your school is more the exception to the rule from what I’ve seen training in several different Karate dojos in 4 different states.

Karate is good for a lot of things and yes even for self-defense but in Karate the way they teach is not optimum for solid self-defense they need to modernize their teaching methodologies. I also believe they don’t address fight Psychology and adrenaline response well enough and need to address issues such as ground fighting practical knife and stick fighting not the traditionally weapons and teaching methods either but in a modern way that truly applies to the anatomy and psychology of a street attack.

I’m not putting Karate down. I practice Karate but I also see it for what it is. Karate for far to long has been taught and practiced like an elementary school exercise and a sport that it has forgotten that it once was designed for combat. It is based in tradition and culture and has a hard time fitting in today’s chaotic and hostile world. It’s almost like trying to put a square peg into a round hole, you can do it but it takes a very large hammer (meaning if you practice long enough and hard enough then you should do okay in self-defense). However if you want just self-defense there are better systems out there.

Thanks, darrianation. The points you raised are very valid. True, times have changed & the scenarios one encounters out on the streets have changed significantly. We also have to put into great consideration that a lot of martial artists today are well rounded & are versed w/ various self-defense techniques. This is something that every MA (not only Karate) would have to consider in the teaching of their art. My cousin & I were discussing that it's a big probability that back during the Okinawate era, the way the Kata's were developed, was the way people actually fought, so I guess the bunkai now would be very different. We're not sure, of course. But yeah, everything has changed & it is high time for changes in the curriculum?

Your second to the last sentence, I think, is the way Karate was probably taught back in the days (I was taught the same way when I was practicing). One has to be very patient & do what the Sensei tells you to do. In time, your reflexes, state of mind, & physical condition becomes that of a great fighter. But again, you're right. These times, everything happens too fast, too sudden that a student who enrolls in any MA needs the self-defense aspect of it almost immediately. This is something that has to be addressed in Karate whereby, the self-defense aspects of the art is taught sooner and then infuse the old ways of instilling discipline to their students. I don't know... too many factors involved... too many aspects to consider. I need help here, anyone?

[old skool dude]

Karate AINT so Bad...

I know Im talking ancient history here, but
Benny Urguidez, one of the pioneers and giants in the sport, a man who took on all comers, and under every kinda rules wuz a.....KARATE GUY! Benny is even quoted as saying that Kata, Wazas are useful...

[darrianation]

I know Im talking ancient history here, but
Benny Urguidez, one of the pioneers and giants in the sport, a man who took on all comers, and under every kinda rules wuz a.....KARATE GUY! Benny is even quoted as saying that Kata, Wazas are useful...

Remember that Benny is a sport martial artist (not that he couldn’t defend himself). If he thinks Kata has value then I would ask him to quantify that statement but it is still only his opinion.

Kata teaches and reinforces improper neuro-muscular memory. You perform movements repetitively that you wouldn’t do in competition or in the street. So if you don’t do those over exaggerated blocks, spear hands and footwork with all the pauses in a real fight then why would you want to practice this way? This might be okay for the beginner to learn the techniques correctly but you need to move on and don’t reinforce the things that are not used in real fighting.

Techniques in Kata that are rarely (if at all) used in fighting.
1) Spear hand
2) Knife hand blocks
3) Most Karate blocks and they’re associated combinations (to slow) except the low block and the inside block (similar to the parry)
4) A lot of the foot work (the way it used in the kata)
5) Many of the stances (the way they are used in the kata)
6) Leaving punches, and or kicks (strikes) out to show power
7) The pauses are not practical

Just to name a few.

Even in bunkai (sp?) who attacks like that? Who holds their arms out like that? ETC! Same for step sparring it may be good for beginners to learn timing but the attacks and blocks are not practical. So after the beginner has his timing worked out, step sparring should be phased out, or the attack, defend and counter sequences need to change to be a more practical exercise.

Training one way (Kata, bunkai, step sparring, stances, foot work, leaving punches out, etc) and fighting another way makes no sense. Train the way you would fight!

Of course this is only my opinion.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

For bunkai go to http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com
It is about old skool karate and is linked to Patrick McCarthy, the foremost authority on Bunkai and Kyusho

As fore knifehand block not practical, what about shuto nagashi uke? ( goes from outside to inside and is pulled towards oneself) it is not unlike a parry

Shotokanification of the Kata = stances become deeper, pauses longer and more often ( only pauses should be finishhing technique of a combination)
deep breathing on every technique ( in a way unlike shurite karate)
Large movements because judges somehow are blind to subtle movements ( no Wado Karateka ever became a WUKO/WKF WC Kata)

Multistyle kata competition fucked it even more up than Itosu did

[darrianation]

As fore knifehand block not practical, what about shuto nagashi uke? ( goes from outside to inside and is pulled towards oneself) it is not unlike a parry

I still contend that in the contex of kata and most karate practice it is done wrong and with to much over emphasis. If you are going to parry then parry.

Shotokanification of the Kata = stances become deeper, pauses longer and more often ( only pauses should be finishhing technique of a combination)
deep breathing on every technique ( in a way unlike shurite karate)
Large movements because judges somehow are blind to subtle movements ( no Wado Karateka ever became a WUKO/WKF WC Kata)

Multistyle kata competition fucked it even more up than Itosu did[/QUOTE]

Tatally agree here!

In my mind anyway from the styles of Karate I have trained in none of them had a good practical way of training the way you would fight. It seems the day in and day out methods of Karate training is kept separate from real fight training. It is as if there are two separate systems in one. One for the every day training (learning and practicing techniques, stances, attack, defenses, etc) and one you use to fight with. I have studied in Karate for 10 years now and I still don't get why there needs to be two systems. I think once you hit a mid level colored belt some of these more basic methods of training should begin to be phased out. When the basics are learned then begin a different approach towards effective application, and using the techniques, stances, combinations, attacks and defenses the way you would in real fighting (street).

This would make Karate more effective for self-defense. There are other things missing too. Most of these things have been talked about in this thread already like fight psychology, adrenaline response, awareness and avoidance, realistic scenarios, etc, etc.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

I will see if I can OCR some of the text of the book from Ohtsuka Hironori
Especially the part about Suhari and about Kata
Kata competition is totaly the oposite of that, because like Kihon they are just a base where to work from not a mold to create the same over and over again

Pre 1922 karate didn't yet have styles,and every teacher used his own curiculum and his own way, his students in term would do the same because they would study with other teachers too
Although this ensures evolution of the art, it makes international standardisation very hard

In Japan one used to get permission to teach from ones teacher when he considered you goed enough and aware of the whole curiculum
In the west people reached black belt level and left their teacher to start teaching themself
The old masters had validity in changing things, nowadays people change things while still being ignorant about what that art alll has to offer

[IPON]

The old masters had validity in changing things, nowadays people change things while still being ignorant about what that art alll has to offer

Well said and all too true!!!

[Phorce]

Kata offers different, stimulating way to train. It does teach co-ordination etc. and makes a training programme less tedious. Admittedly we punch thin air, but to perfect the technique first.

I dont think you (anyone who dislikes the idea of karate) can judge the form unless youve progressed through it and almost mastered it, in the same way that i cannot judge JKD, etc. etc. AS for the comment on spiritual fulfilment, i suggest that you try it before putting it down.

[Thai Bri]

Yeah.

Right.

[Phorce]

Yeah.

Right.

Honestly.

Its real, its nice.

[darrianation]

Kata offers different, stimulating way to train. It does teach co-ordination etc. and makes a training programme less tedious. Admittedly we punch thin air, but to perfect the technique first.

I dont think you (anyone who dislikes the idea of karate) can judge the form unless youve progressed through it and almost mastered it, in the same way that i cannot judge JKD, etc. etc. AS for the comment on spiritual fulfilment, i suggest that you try it before putting it down.

Well I have put in over 20 years in the martial arts and 10 years into karate so I think that gives me a right to make some judgments right or wrong.

And I judge karate the way it is generally taught and trained in most dojos to be an inferior product. Now there are exceptions to the rule, but for the most part Kata, holding arms out, over exaggerated blocks, punch/blocking from hips, pre-arranged cooperative drills do nothing for your ability to fight and in fact can be counter productive due to it can wire your neuromuscular memory incorrectly.

[Thai Bri]

Correct. He's learning so much form me..........