Karate ain't so bad

[Toudiyama[NL]]

You are 101% correct,

another thing is, in kata of karate is full of stop-by-stop motion while in sparring is full of jumping back and forth, no signs of blocking.

You know - kata is your blueprint in true fighting, so, whatever your kata is thats the way you fight, especially those in 1st kata - the Kihon Kata no. 1 which is purely all Lung Punch and downward block and upward block, i cannot use this first kata in a surprice attack with my enemy.

while in chinese martial arts especially the northern style of lohan for example, the first kata is - wow, many many options ;-)

Kihon Kata is just a variation on Kihon, nothing else
We didn't do them even though some Wado schools did them
Seeing that I did the minimum of old style Kihon , I'm shure as he not gonna do kihon kata

Pinan katas same thing but just for the fun of it we did those

Koryu kata those are supposed to flow more, pitty some styles screwed those up to into a stop motion excercise

Forms in itself aren't bad but like fcokeefe stated it should be adjusted with society and not be used as a tool on itself or as an end
the tool only works if you can apply it in fighting without too much alteration (speed) and if these applications are trained with partner too

[brokenelbow]

"Only in full speed full contact unstable environmental conditions can you even begin to approach the Evil Shitstorm of the 'Dreaded Streets'. And even then you're missing the mark."
Can you explain by what you mean by full speed full contact? Are you padded up? What is your intent? How fast do you practice to try and take someone out in? And what are unstable environmental conditions and how do you recreate these for practice?

The problem is so many people are used to seeing the crap versions that if you tell them some styles are a combative art they don't believe it. Oh well it is fun watching people reinvent the wheel and thinking they're doing something new.

[cross]

Toudiyama[NL],

You should have realised already that you are wasting your time try to prove to others that karate is effective. You can make all the posts you want but it isnt going to change peoples opinions. All forms of martial arts/sports have their place in the modern world so why cant we just respect each others choices and study what we want without putting each other down all the time.

[platinum_angel]

you should feel blessed toudiyama. if i had someone telling my that karate was a waste of time and that i should have tooken wreslting instead i would have been much better off.......and with more money

[brokenelbow]

And he could have afforded that tutor and now be able to spell simple words.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

you should feel blessed toudiyama. if i had someone telling my that karate was a waste of time and that i should have tooken wreslting instead i would have been much better off.......and with more money

Maybe you would but I wouldn't I never attended a commerc ial Karateschool but a club that weren't out to rip me of my money

McDojo is not a karate phenomenon but an american one, don't blame karate for that, few other countries have those

But my point of this thread was just that if Karateka can advance in K1 then it can't be all bad

I know I won't convince the MT is the best (standup)selfdefence guys
Nor will I convince binary thinkers (Either you win K1 or you are crap at SD)
to them being slightly less good at something is the same as being crap at it

To me Karate is no more than a set of priciples and techniques, the training methods is what makes the school but not the art

[Toudiyama[NL]]

And he could have afforded that tutor and now be able to spell simple words.

He if american and english people make mistakes, I, as a dutchman, shure as he am allowed to make a few typos
Sometimes my fingers just don't do what my brain thinks

btw had an A- and didn't do anything for that, heck the teacher knew I didn't do any homework, if we had to translate I did it on the spot
So I doubt if a tutor would have made that any better

[Thai Bri]

McDojo may be an American term, but it is not merely an American phenomenon. It is worldwide. And Karate is one of its biggest stars.

[Shorin88]

A lot of people seeem to think Karate is useless, I beg to differ
The K1 Final was between Musashi and Bonjaski, Karate vs MT even though Musashi lost, I think only a fool will say Musashi was defenceless
If Karate was so useless and ineffective Musashi wouldn't even have made it to the finals, the semi final he beat Aerts, former K1 champ

Musashi is a Seidokaikan karateka

Karate is defeinetly a good martial art no one can deny that.

Karate is life long there is no need to rush.

[Thai Bri]

Thats a classic example of one of the infamous TMA myths - if it takes a long time to learn, it must be good.

Don't you think it should eb the other way around?

[zeno44]

Kata vs. Sparring

OK, obviously sparring gives you things tha kata never can. But let me give you a musical example. Do any of you play instruments? If you do you'll know that a lot of practice involves learning and practicing scale patterns. You learn the notes in a certain progression and practice until your fingers play these notes with no effort. Do you use exact scale progressions in actual songs? Rarely, but the by practicing them you've trained your fingers to respond instantaneously and correctly. That is what kata is for. You train movements over and over to develop the correct form. Kata practice is only effective if your movements are precise. You don't want to practice mistakes. Do you use kata in fighting? No, but the strikes and blocks that you've thrown (and if you were practicing well you were visualizing the entire time) thousands of times are now instinctive. I am not a believer that you can ONLY practice kata and become a proficient fighter, but I do believe that there is a practical place for kata in today's martial arts. When you practice against a bag..or a wall..or a tree, whatever, you also have no opponent. You are practicing the movement. Bag work gives you a different form of practice than kata, but both are useful.

To say that someone else's time proven training practices are useless if straight foolishness. Muay Thai is an excellent fighitng art. There is no denying that, but it is not the only one.

[zeno44]

I do agree with that. But practicing the kata certainly can't hurt your ability. I think we all agree that actual full contact sparring is the best way to learn, but you can't do that alllll the time.

[zeno44]

nice to see a couple of martial artists agree. you don't see that much on this site. what with Roger bashing anything and everything that is said.

has anyone met him? does he have all the skill he thinks he does?

[choylifutrocks]

K1 are MT and Karate, not kung fu or American kickboxing
Still you and others think Karate is more useless than kungfu ( look at the poll)

Man, don't try find a scapegoat for Karate... Besides, if KungFu sucks so bad, why did SanShou walk all over full contact karate for 4 (?? is that right) years in a row.

Anyway, I wan't to agree that Karate isn't as useless as some people try to say it is. There have been plenty of great K1 Karateka's.

My biggest problem with most Karate styles, is that they are not effective boxers. I don't expect every MA to have both ground and stand-up covered--especially since most MA's don't cover both--, so I'll leave it at that.

PS, don't let Thai Bri get you going. He's just practicing and it's nothing personal against you or Karate. He's just being negative because he is planning on running for political office in America j/k TB

[Thai Bri]

OK, obviously sparring gives you things tha kata never can. But let me give you a musical example. Do any of you play instruments? If you do you'll know that a lot of practice involves learning and practicing scale patterns. You learn the notes in a certain progression and practice until your fingers play these notes with no effort. Do you use exact scale progressions in actual songs? Rarely, but the by practicing them you've trained your fingers to respond instantaneously and correctly. That is what kata is for. You train movements over and over to develop the correct form. Kata practice is only effective if your movements are precise. You don't want to practice mistakes. Do you use kata in fighting? No, but the strikes and blocks that you've thrown (and if you were practicing well you were visualizing the entire time) thousands of times are now instinctive. I am not a believer that you can ONLY practice kata and become a proficient fighter, but I do believe that there is a practical place for kata in today's martial arts. When you practice against a bag..or a wall..or a tree, whatever, you also have no opponent. You are practicing the movement. Bag work gives you a different form of practice than kata, but both are useful.

To say that someone else's time proven training practices are useless if straight foolishness. Muay Thai is an excellent fighitng art. There is no denying that, but it is not the only one.

Your analogy doesn't fit. Practicing scales on a musical instrument is NEVER done in thin air. You NEVER use your imagination to visualise the instrument being there. No, we can't justify beating the crap out of people all the time, but hitting pads and bags is the next best thing.

Kata practice is not a "time proven" technique. Look at the styles that with the NHB fights. They don't do Kata. And people who fight in them under tha "Karate" banner prepare themselves by using MMA training methods. You don't see them perfrming Bassai Dai for six weeks before the fight.

Kata practice DOES inhibit effective training. You do not throw techniques the same way as you would (or should) against a real opponent. You are quite literally conditioning your body to do it wrong.