Karate ain't so bad

[sherwinc]

The Truth......

Your analogy doesn't fit. Practicing scales on a musical instrument is NEVER done in thin air. You NEVER use your imagination to visualise the instrument being there. No, we can't justify beating the crap out of people all the time, but hitting pads and bags is the next best thing.

Kata practice is not a "time proven" technique. Look at the styles that with the NHB fights. They don't do Kata. And people who fight in them under tha "Karate" banner prepare themselves by using MMA training methods. You don't see them perfrming Bassai Dai for six weeks before the fight.

Kata practice DOES inhibit effective training. You do not throw techniques the same way as you would (or should) against a real opponent. You are quite literally conditioning your body to do it wrong.

Kata in Karate and in Tae Kwon Do are all useless because they doesn't apply what they learn in their Kata.

but.....

Kata in KungFu is the best... cause the appearance of their Kata is what the way they fight.

N O T E :

In KungFu:
Show me your Advance Kata - for me to know your weakness and the way you fight, cause Kata in KungFu is the BLUEPRINT.
We can identify if your KungFu is in the category of Northern or Southern KungFu the way you perform your Kata.
We can identify if your KungFu is in the category of Hard or Soft KungFu the way you perform your Kata.
We can identify if your KungFu is in the category of Internal or External KungFu the way you perform your Kata.
We can identify if your KungFu is a Taoist or Buddhist based KungFu the way you perform your Kata.
We can identify your strongest and weakest point of your KungFu the way you perform your Kata.

While...........

The Kata of Karate and Tae Kwon do is USELESS because the way they perform their Kata is - they did not apply in sparring or actual fight or tournament.

As what i said before.....

Karate's Kata is full of pause-by-pause and stop-by-stop but when they fight, sparring, tournament, streetfight - you could not see any Kata steps.

but....

Tae Kwon Do is the worst than Karate because.....

Tae Kwon Do's Kata is like a Karate's Kata but when they fight, sparring, tournament is full of jumping, hopping, skipping while their Kata is no existence of jumping, hopping, skipping.

so......

what's the use of Kata?????????

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Just nonsense

Kata in Karate and in Tae Kwon Do are all useless because they doesn't apply what they learn in their Kata.

but.....

Kata in KungFu is the best... cause the appearance of their Kata is what the way they fight.

N O T E :

In KungFu:
Show me your Advance Kata - for me to know your weakness and the way you fight, cause Kata in KungFu is the BLUEPRINT.
We can identify if your KungFu is in the category of Northern or Southern KungFu the way you perform your Kata.
We can identify if your KungFu is in the category of Hard or Soft KungFu the way you perform your Kata.
We can identify if your KungFu is in the category of Internal or External KungFu the way you perform your Kata.
We can identify if your KungFu is a Taoist or Buddhist based KungFu the way you perform your Kata.
We can identify your strongest and weakest point of your KungFu the way you perform your Kata.

While...........

The Kata of Karate and Tae Kwon do is USELESS because the way they perform their Kata is - they did not apply in sparring or actual fight or tournament.

As what i said before.....

Karate's Kata is full of pause-by-pause and stop-by-stop but when they fight, sparring, tournament, streetfight - you could not see any Kata steps.

but....

Tae Kwon Do is the worst than Karate because.....

Tae Kwon Do's Kata is like a Karate's Kata but when they fight, sparring, tournament is full of jumping, hopping, skipping while their Kata is no existence of jumping, hopping, skipping.

so......

what's the use of Kata?????????

Yeah right in KF they don't stop, why then if you see a larger group being instructed, the do things on the count?
External KF is much the same as Karate is, internal KF flows more
Appart from that I mentioned in an other thread before, Karate kata shouldn't be done step by step but combo by combo

but all the flowing doesn't make them practical oh and a guy like Bruce Lee based his objection to forms on chinese KF forms stating, if a movement is supposed to be this , why not train this
You mentioned your techniques are even more vaque, you have to think of uses yourself
So taken thaat I think Chinise forms are just as crap for SD training as Karate or TKD forms are

[sherwinc]

added information for you......

Yeah right in KF they don't stop, why then if you see a larger group being instructed, the do things on the count?
External KF is much the same as Karate is, internal KF flows more
Appart from that I mentioned in an other thread before, Karate kata shouldn't be done step by step but combo by combo

but all the flowing doesn't make them practical oh and a guy like Bruce Lee based his objection to forms on chinese KF forms stating, if a movement is supposed to be this , why not train this
You mentioned your techniques are even more vaque, you have to think of uses yourself
So taken thaat I think Chinise forms are just as crap for SD training as Karate or TKD forms are

If you compare KungFu KATA to ENGLISH LANGUAGE:

ENGLISH LANGUAGE:
Alphabets, Words, Sentences, Sentences to conversation, Numbers, Verbs, Adjectives, Noun and Pronoun, Past - Present - Future Tense, etc, etc, etc,

while in......

KUNGFU KATA:
Basic Fist Forms, Non-fighting Art Training, Chi enhancements, Chi Sau, PushingHands or Twee Chiu, Iron Palm Training or Poison Hand Training, Ngo-Ki Arm hitting exercises, Horse Riding Stance Training or Kia Be Se, KungFu-KATA, etc, etc, etc,

but.....

there are unique KATA purposes and achievement/benefits to every KungFu styles/systems.....

that is why....

your kata is your BLUEPRINT in your Art. Whatever your Kata is - that is the way you your KungFu fight.

then....

that is the reason why you should never show to the public your most advance KungFu KATA cause, your advance level KungFu Opponent may see it then they will know your weakness and your fighting advantanges - thru your Kata.

Now.....

How about Karate Kata and Tae Kwon Do Kata?????????

[jules]

simply put, unless you are a beginner, katas are not that helpful. It doesnt' matter what kind of Kata it is. The main problem with Karate/TKD/alot of Kung fu styles is that they give you bad habits a.k.a hands at the hip bullshit. It's more of a defensive flaw if anything... Keep your hands UP!!!.

[Thai Bri]

Learning Kata is only helpful in learning Kata. It only teaches you the "correct" way to do Kata.

The movements are irrelevant to an actual fight and, as such, should be discarded.

This is where people say "Yeah, but I do Karate for the sake of the art". Do it, but don't kid yourself that you are learning to fight.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Learning Kata is only helpful in learning Kata. It only teaches you the "correct" way to do Kata.

The movements are irrelevant to an actual fight and, as such, should be discarded.

This is where people say "Yeah, but I do Karate for the sake of the art". Do it, but don't kid yourself that you are learning to fight.

I have to point to styles like Ashihara or Enshin again, they did away with the old forms and replaced those with fighting forms, all that is done in the forms, is done the same with or without opponent

The Tool initself isn't bad, but the way it is used is
The old forms used to be practical when they were trained along with their application, from the moment the applications weren't trained anymore, the forms started to change into a static excercise only usefull to train balance, speed and timing, but no longer for fighting
Nagging about half an inch made it into a performance, a show that pays more attention to appearance then on function

[Thai Bri]

You need to decide if you think Kata is good training or not. You didn't used to make this distinction...... maybe you're learnig form me!

They may be more fluid, but they are still against thin air. Their is still no spontaneity. It is keeping hold of an outdated training method for the sake of "tradition". It is still practicing the musical instrument without having one in your hand, and changing from classical to jazz makes no difference.

Your desperate!

[Toudiyama[NL]]

You need to decide if you think Kata is good training or not. You didn't used to make this distinction...... maybe you're learnig form me!

They may be more fluid, but they are still against thin air. Their is still no spontaneity. It is keeping hold of an outdated training method for the sake of "tradition". It is still practicing the musical instrument without having one in your hand, and changing from classical to jazz makes no difference.

Your desperate!

Sorry but the tool is fine, it isn't me who thinks puching into thin air is wrong
We did that in MT/kickboxing too

The thing I agree with you on is that if the excercise differs a lot from the real application, it sucks as an exercise to learn fighting
And like I said there are styles where there is no difference between the application and the form.

Forms and shadowboxing are great for training without partner or just to learn a new combo, if they are good fighting combos, then the training is benificial for fighting

BTW I take it you don't hit your partner for the full 100 % all the time during training, or do you?

[Nit]

When we learn kata we learn bits at a time step by step in thin air, we do this to teh point that we can do this fluidly and learn about the different techniques and moves and their application.

We then take time with a partner to learn a few steps of the kata in practical use of self defence or attack. Once we can use the concept of what teh movement in the kata represents we then try to use all the concepts from the kata in free sparring.

Consequentially when I fight now a lot of my movement looks like kata but is effective against the opponent.

recently we have had novices and other martial artists (Judo, Akido and Ju-Jitsu) in our classes and we have learned that practical kata (well practiced) is useful in sparring. Also we have learned that the other arts have a lot to teach us as well.

I think that Karate, because it was the 'popular eastern art for westerners' is not taught correctly, I think the actual art is fine. We all have a responsibility to ourselves when learning self defence not to highlight what is bad and good in an art(s) but to learn what works for us best.

[RuskiRonin]

Kata's are practiced ALONE, you dont always have a training partner to work with. Many schools like the Shaolin-kung fu school i visited study a kata in two weeks and move on. we have been doing the siu lim tao for over a year and its shorter then the Hong Kong siu lim tao. do the siu lim tao differently each time, and sometimes combine, each time work on a different principle.
centerline,elbow movement,relaxation - detect where your tensions sets in and fix it,balance,tensions in the forearms where needed
( We call this the Tiger Element ). it is also a great chi-kung excercise overall if you do it right, unlike karate kata that work hard and fast and put on a show.
wingchun forms look pathetic... the siu lim tao IS wingchun,while in many karate schools KATA is kata , and Fighting is Kumite practice, where kata doesnt even exist, they say this themselves! so this is why i find KATA useless when your just learning it for some belt tests.

[brokenelbow]

Practicing scales on a musical instrument is NEVER done in thin air. You NEVER use your imagination to visualise the instrument being there.

Spoken like Thai Bri. It's common with musicians to visualize and run through pieces without their instrument. While not being up there with playing with a band it does serve it's purpose, like kata and shadow boxing do.

[Nit]

I've been of the opinion that Kata is the essence of the art that you are studying. All the other stuff is teaching and preparing your body to fight, the Kata is teaching a way to enhance your fighting skills.

With all of the arts that I have experienced they all have the same basic movements and principles, when it comes down to self defence a punch is a punch is a punch etc.

From learning the kata with a practical application I have now ingrained into my reactions an understanding of my movement and set of defense and attackes that are automatic.

If a karate or any class just teaches kata so you can pass a belt test, or so it is astectically pleasing but never use it in kumite then the Sensei has missed teh point of the art's application.

Essentially anyone can learn how to fight (make a fist throw it, raise your leg kick it) but what makes the different styles of a martial art are the application of specific sets of movement, which are stored in the kata. The common mistake is that people see the fighting and see the kata as seperate entities, when really they are the same thing taught differently.

One final thing, since I have been 'doing' my katas more often (every night I review one) I have noticed that my receptiveness to learning and performing techniques has improved. It's like a mini-workout that targets the specific areas that need to be improved for me to get better at my art.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that Kata has a purpose, but unless you use it then it's useless to you. If you do Kata try to understand why you are doing it, don't take it at face value (if three men attack me at 90 degree angles I do this this this) but try to understand each move seperately and how they can flow into each other, and then try to use the discret movements until they all flow. If you can fight with flowing from position to position it will begin to look like Kata, but essentially you'll be fighting too!

[bvermillion]

I've been of the opinion that Kata is the essence of the art that you are studying. All the other stuff is teaching and preparing your body to fight, the Kata is teaching a way to enhance your fighting skills.

With all of the arts that I have experienced they all have the same basic movements and principles, when it comes down to self defence a punch is a punch is a punch etc.

From learning the kata with a practical application I have now ingrained into my reactions an understanding of my movement and set of defense and attackes that are automatic.

If a karate or any class just teaches kata so you can pass a belt test, or so it is astectically pleasing but never use it in kumite then the Sensei has missed teh point of the art's application.

Essentially anyone can learn how to fight (make a fist throw it, raise your leg kick it) but what makes the different styles of a martial art are the application of specific sets of movement, which are stored in the kata. The common mistake is that people see the fighting and see the kata as seperate entities, when really they are the same thing taught differently.

One final thing, since I have been 'doing' my katas more often (every night I review one) I have noticed that my receptiveness to learning and performing techniques has improved. It's like a mini-workout that targets the specific areas that need to be improved for me to get better at my art.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that Kata has a purpose, but unless you use it then it's useless to you. If you do Kata try to understand why you are doing it, don't take it at face value (if three men attack me at 90 degree angles I do this this this) but try to understand each move seperately and how they can flow into each other, and then try to use the discret movements until they all flow. If you can fight with flowing from position to position it will begin to look like Kata, but essentially you'll be fighting too!

No disrespect man but that is crazy. A fight doesn't go down like that. Ok this man threw a front kick so I should low block reverse punch and then side kick. Fights are crazy there is no set way in which they happen the only way to prepare for a fight is to fight. And by fight I mean spar and simulate a fight. But to think in your head if he attacks this way I will do blue belt form and destroy him is crazy. I promise nothing you have planned in your head will happen in a fight. Fights aren't plans they arent games with rules they are haywire. Now about forms I do practice forms but I hate them. I do them out of respect for my instructor. I do believe there are benefits to forms. But I also believe all of the benifits can be obtained in more practical ways such as actual sparring and shadow boxing. And about them being the essence of your art that is just crazy. The essence of your art is what sets if apart from other arts not the forms. Taekwondo is set apart because of its kicks. Shotokan is set apart because of it's deep stances and strong hand movements. Judo is set apart because of its throws. Throws are the essence of judo high kicks are the essence of taekwondo.

[eagle]

belief what you practise

No disrespect man but that is crazy. A fight doesn't go down like that. Ok this man threw a front kick so I should low block reverse punch and then side kick. Fights are crazy there is no set way in which they happen the only way to prepare for a fight is to fight. And by fight I mean spar and simulate a fight. But to think in your head if he attacks this way I will do blue belt form and destroy him is crazy. I promise nothing you have planned in your head will happen in a fight. Fights aren't plans they arent games with rules they are haywire. Now about forms I do practice forms but I hate them. I do them out of respect for my instructor. I do believe there are benefits to forms. But I also believe all of the benifits can be obtained in more practical ways such as actual sparring and shadow boxing. And about them being the essence of your art that is just crazy. The essence of your art is what sets if apart from other arts not the forms. Taekwondo is set apart because of its kicks. Shotokan is set apart because of it's deep stances and strong hand movements. Judo is set apart because of its throws. Throws are the essence of judo high kicks are the essence of taekwondo.

hello
Nothing is crazy in Martial arts my friend only strange to see and to belief.
Importent is the combination of these two.
When you want to master an art do not forget the basics and the basics are found in kata not in kumite, because most of the time when people enter kumite there style is losing a little from itself.
While in kata the style itself is blooming open.
So I can only advice you not to hate your forms as they belong to the roots of your art, but try to go with them and in kumite try not to forget the basics of your art. That's why first know what you practise rather then practise what you know. good luck

[bvermillion]

I dont totally dislike forms. I just would prefer not to do them. As far as the topic of this thread I agree Karate ain't so bad but you have to know how to apply what is good and realize what isn't. You also have to implement other techniques into your regimen. I train taekwondo but if you were to see me fight you would never guess. Because I also grapple on a regular basis and we often do modified sparring where there are few rules it is pretty much the same rules of vale tudo just a little lighter and during these modified sparring classes we learn what really works and what is for fun. Back to forms I believe they teach you good combinations, improve balance, and ingrain techniques in your head. My instructor could show me a combination and then have me practice it which would be a lot easier way to learn combinations. I can improve my balance by actually sparring and I can ingrain techniques in my head by practicing them on a heavy bag. I do forms because my instructor tells us to. If I thought there were absolutely no benefits to forms I would go to another school. I know that my instructor is the best in the area and that I can make the sacrifice and do what he asks.