I wasn't referring to anything you said. I was just speaking in general.
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Karate ain't so bad
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You all get an E.
Kata is nothing to do with real fighting. You move in a totally different way, requiring different balance. You have no spontaneous stimuli, and imagining yourself in a life or death battle isn't the same as reacting to spontaneity.
The musician may visualise, which I have often said is a good technique. he does not wave his fingers about pretending to play the instrument. That is where the harm is - teaching your body to move in a way NOT suitable for real fighting. Visualising doesn't do that.
Nit - you are being lost to the dark side again my friend.... Watch Dimitri move on Feb 1st, and then tell me how a Kata could prepare you for that, or even to emulate it.
There is plenty of effective training to do alone. Why do you all hold on so desperatley to this out of date nonsense? It MAY one day have been a great way to catalogue the techniques of an art...... but we don't need to do that any more.
Soccer players don't kick imaginary balls, baseball players don't hit them (without a bat as well!) and Rugby players don't throw them....... tennis players don't hit them....
Wrestlers don't roll around with imaginary opponents...... shooters don't shoot imaginary guns....... swimmers don't swim in imaginary water..... Jockeys don't ride imaginary horses..... Even Rowers, who use rowing machines..., don't sit on the floor and row an imaginary boat1 It goes on and on and on.
Of course, these people may exercise..... but they don't pretend to themselves that they are SKILL training for their event!
Only Martial Artists take part in this strange quirk of illogical human thinking. And, even then, NOT the martial artists that win the full contact striking, grappling and MMA competitions out there!
WAKE UP AND SMELL THE ROSES - DO KATA IF YOU WANT TO - BUT DON'T TELL PEOPLE THAT THEY ARE TRAINING FOR REAL FIGHTING BY DOING SO - YOU ARE WASTING THEIR TIME AND RUINING THEIR CHANCES TO DEVELOP!!!!!!!!!!!
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Most sporters don't do things imaginary
MA aren't sports like other sports, the sports part is extra
BTW whenever something becomes dangerous, things are done imaginary
Pilot fly imaginary planes to learn or be tested
You shoot imaginary people at the range ( and sometimes even imaginary bullets when it is done electronicaly)
even in the medic profession VR starts to show up
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I appreciate all your comments, and I think what I was trying to get across was lost in translation from my head to the keyboard.
What I was trying to indicate is that each individual movement of Kata has many applications and by learning about the Kata (trying to understand it) and practising the concepts drawn from it you become a better fighter.
What I definately definately WASN'T trying to say was that if a certain attack happens then you do this set of moves from Kata's 2 4 and Kushanku.... nonono
Basically the Kata can enhance your options when fighting, so when you throw that punch and he blocks you will be able to react in different ways other than just punch again.
I'm not saying that the Kata's are the be all and end all of self defense, Bri I'll show you what I mean at the seminar afterwards (if I have a face left!) I know that Kata alone will not defeat Mr D (or anythign I do in fact!!), but then I recognise that and incorporate what works against Kata into what I do. I'm not a robot, just getting the most out of everything I learn.
I'll site one example that recently hit me. In the first move of the second Kata (Pinan Nedan) there is a sideways leg defense move with your left fist into an L-stance... When you go into this stance you drop your wieght.
On going through self defense technique (wrestling) we were bear hugged from behind, arms pinned. The counter was to swing your left arm up and around, twist and step to the left and drop your weight, you can then do many a thing such as forward roll, hand grabs arm locks or escape. I found this easier to learn and perform than the others as I had practised my kata's diligently and the movement was essentially the same. I am taught and find things like this in the Kata's all the time when applying it to real life situations. Thats why I think the Katas are useful, because I am learnign things that I can use in sparring effectively... maybe I'm the only one...
biddy biddy biddy
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Originally posted by Thai BriYou all get an E.
Kata is nothing to do with real fighting. You move in a totally different way, requiring different balance. You have no spontaneous stimuli, and imagining yourself in a life or death battle isn't the same as reacting to spontaneity.
The musician may visualise, which I have often said is a good technique. he does not wave his fingers about pretending to play the instrument. That is where the harm is - teaching your body to move in a way NOT suitable for real fighting. Visualising doesn't do that.
Nit - you are being lost to the dark side again my friend.... Watch Dimitri move on Feb 1st, and then tell me how a Kata could prepare you for that, or even to emulate it.
There is plenty of effective training to do alone. Why do you all hold on so desperatley to this out of date nonsense? It MAY one day have been a great way to catalogue the techniques of an art...... but we don't need to do that any more.
Soccer players don't kick imaginary balls, baseball players don't hit them (without a bat as well!) and Rugby players don't throw them....... tennis players don't hit them....
Wrestlers don't roll around with imaginary opponents...... shooters don't shoot imaginary guns....... swimmers don't swim in imaginary water..... Jockeys don't ride imaginary horses..... Even Rowers, who use rowing machines..., don't sit on the floor and row an imaginary boat1 It goes on and on and on.
Of course, these people may exercise..... but they don't pretend to themselves that they are SKILL training for their event!
Only Martial Artists take part in this strange quirk of illogical human thinking. And, even then, NOT the martial artists that win the full contact striking, grappling and MMA competitions out there!
WAKE UP AND SMELL THE ROSES - DO KATA IF YOU WANT TO - BUT DON'T TELL PEOPLE THAT THEY ARE TRAINING FOR REAL FIGHTING BY DOING SO - YOU ARE WASTING THEIR TIME AND RUINING THEIR CHANCES TO DEVELOP!!!!!!!!!!!
As a new member here I overlooked this site and found out that many people here put more focus on the fighting aspect of martial arts rather then the healing aspect of it specially with those cagefighting nonsense and shootfighting those people are destroying the real martial arts.
We don't have to compete to proof but we compete to share to help each other in both our developments in the art.
Just like in kata we show the pure style but we don't invite to fight on kata.
Kata is based upon basics of the art and little by little you develop yourself.
That development only comes when somebody knows what he practise and that is in every sport the same.
With all those federations over the whole world and competitions is kumite nowdays a fact that we can't avoid I know but my point is that karate or any art that has kata is the start to invite young people to learn something and you don't learn them to fight, but you learn them first to avoid fighting because that's the real martial art. It's better to avoid a fight then to come home with a black eye.
I also understand with all the violence nowdays that we have to adjust to the time we live in, but we may not forget the basics of live same with basics of martial arts. Martial arts is just a way of life not only practise in dojo but outside dojo then you have to apply your real art. You may know how to punch you may know how to kick and to strike any part of the body if you have no balance your efforts will be useless.
Well balance can be found in the basics of your art in the roots of your art.
Once a good balance everything is safe my friend.
Kata is not nonsense same for kumite, because your art is not nonsense if you know what you practise and belief in yourself.
But one thing is for sure where kumite stops kata goes on in your life .
with great respect to all martial artists.
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Originally posted by Toudiyama[NL]Most sporters don't do things imaginary
MA aren't sports like other sports, the sports part is extra
BTW whenever something becomes dangerous, things are done imaginary
Pilot fly imaginary planes to learn or be tested
You shoot imaginary people at the range ( and sometimes even imaginary bullets when it is done electronicaly)
even in the medic profession VR starts to show up
Eagle - if you want to do Kata for Kata's sake, fine. But, like I said, its a shame to tell beginners that they will be helping learn how to defend themselves when they do it. More than a shame....more of a crime.
Nit - just because you feel your body moves in a similar way in Kata as it does in the odd wrestling move here and there.... it hardly makes Kata worthwhile. Do the wrestling!
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Bri, I agree that if I wish to progress and become better at say wrestling then I should train wrestling... I don't see Kata as 'the' way to learn fighting, more like a tool to help me remember the essence of my art and keep trim.
I don't get opportunity to practise or structure a workout everyday, so it used to be that I practised my kicks, punches etc once, maybe twice a week. So obviously each week I progressed slowly.
In the absence of being able to train every other night I do a Kata a day as I am physically more receptive and able at the twice weekly classes and can 'push' that bit more. Also I'm keeping the bar higher than if I just sat on me arse at the end of the day.
I find that Kata is a very sussinct way of 'doing' everything without having to think too hard.
I admit its not the best way to learn how to fight, sparring and actual fighting is, but its the best way to practise the Karate syllabus sans dojo and instructor.
However if anyone is learning a Kata and cannot translate the discret moves into sparring then they are either being taught wrong or are learning by numbers.
I would never tell a beginner to learn a Kata and then say their able to defend, I don't feel that Kata can be appreciated until your able to spar competently. However I would say that the Kata is a useful tool to help you recall, practise and refine the concepts used in the art that you do.
Sorry for the long post. In essence I agree Bri that if your a serious fighter then Kata isn't going to do for you what a professional training regime will, but for all us Johnny butterballs out there Kata is a good way to keep up to scratch in between sessions.
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why shame
Originally posted by Thai BriPilots do't just sit in a chair and do it. The have simulators. You know? Like bag work can simulate an opponent? Even the shooters actually have a gun in their hands........ You're not the sharpest tool in the box, are you?
Eagle - if you want to do Kata for Kata's sake, fine. But, like I said, its a shame to tell beginners that they will be helping learn how to defend themselves when they do it. More than a shame....more of a crime.
Nit - just because you feel your body moves in a similar way in Kata as it does in the odd wrestling move here and there.... it hardly makes Kata worthwhile. Do the wrestling!
you are not understanding my writings here thats for sure.
I never said that with kata you know how to defend yourself but a child or an unknowned person should first learn what is martial arts all about and should not focus on the defending side of it because that will takes him many years before he will know how to defend him in a proper way, so learn a good balance in his art so that he will have strong roots, there is nothing wrong with. I don't believe in fighting and I will never encourage students to follow a way that is just a way of a fist this is useless teaching and ends in violence.
It's not a shame to go with the roots of your art and certain not a crime.
when the body is been developed the mind goes further.
good day
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The circular arguments are laughable.
Remember the martial in martial art? It was supposed to be about fighting. Theres no point being arty without the fighting bit.....
All this "it will develop the concepts of your art", "it will make me better at Karate".....
Yes! It will! The Karate that has little to do with fighting!
People that do Drawing or Painting as an art CAN ACTUALLY DRAW AND PAINT.
People that do Origami can fold paper into the shapes of small animals etc.
But people who pratice the kind of Karate that punches thin air all day long CANNOT fight. They can do Karate.... but they cannot fight.
Karate-Do became about developing the mind. Fair enough. But all this starry eyed nonsense about developing balance, and concepts etc is just that, nonsense.
Stop telling yourself your learning to fight by Kata. You're not. You're learning how not to fight. The best part is when you keep coming up with these examples of other physical pursuits doing similar things...like the shooter with laser guns. Like I said. It is not like Kata at all. That is more akin to bag work or something. Remeber, he has a gun! He is doing something with it. The only thing that would compare would be if he held his arms out like a kid in the school yard shouting "bang bang".
Thats what you're doing when youre praticing Kata!
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Originally posted by Toudiyama[NL]A lot of people seeem to think Karate is useless, I beg to differ
The K1 Final was between Musashi and Bonjaski, Karate vs MT even though Musashi lost, I think only a fool will say Musashi was defenceless
If Karate was so useless and ineffective Musashi wouldn't even have made it to the finals, the semi final he beat Aerts, former K1 champ
Musashi is a Seidokaikan karateka
It failed!
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the truth.....
Originally posted by Thai BriPilots do't just sit in a chair and do it. The have simulators. You know? Like bag work can simulate an opponent? Even the shooters actually have a gun in their hands........ You're not the sharpest tool in the box, are you?
Eagle - if you want to do Kata for Kata's sake, fine. But, like I said, its a shame to tell beginners that they will be helping learn how to defend themselves when they do it. More than a shame....more of a crime.
Nit - just because you feel your body moves in a similar way in Kata as it does in the odd wrestling move here and there.... it hardly makes Kata worthwhile. Do the wrestling!
Only KungFu Kata(set patterns) are useful to the true combat
but.....
Karate Kata is the worst
and especially.....
Tae Kwon Do Kata is the most disaster useless
A WASTE OF TIME
why??????
It is because Karate and Tae Kwon Do Kata's from Kihon Kata1 to NaiHanChin to PasaiDo to highest level of Karate Kata and PomSee of Tae Kwon Do to the most highest Pomsee(Kata) of Tae Kwon Do are all useless and a waste of time.
If you can't use your Kata Steps or Kata Moves in a streetfight then your martial art is useless cause your Kata is your blueprint in your art. I havent seen Karate and Tae Kwon Do use their Kata in their fights cause they will only defeated if they use their stop-by-stop or pause-by-pause kata.
Why not accepting what is true?????
Why not learning KungFu Kun (Kata)???????
Speaking of Kata, only KungFu Kata is the best and this Karate and Tae Kwon Do is a USELESS AND WASTE OF TIME.............
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Originally posted by Thai BriLook at the first post in the thread. It is an attempt to recognise Karate as an effective fighting art.
It failed!
BTW ask this artist painter to paint your shed, he probably wont be able to do a good job ask him to paint a painting and yes he can do that, ask a kata oriented karateka to fight in a full contact fight and he will probably not do a good job, ask him to fight in his own competition and he might do perfectly
I'm not the sharpest tool? maybe but your a blunt instrument
A pilot training virtually, in you mind is the same as flying, and shooting targets is the same as shooting a person but not hitting hard with attacks to the head is defenately not the same as fighting
BTW the tread was suppose to point out that karate CAN be used effectively providing the karateka is open minded and knows when what where to change
There are karateka that do good in MMA events so therefore it can't be all bad, but you are so stuck on bashing karate and other TMA's that you can't even give it that little credit
You are like a Cardinal or Bishop claiming condoms will not protect you against AIDS, you know better but it doesn't fit your purpose ( discrediting karate making shure noone starts in it)
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