Karate ain't so bad

[Thai Bri]

Ok Bri now I am confused, are you saying that in training karateka never train with heavy bags focus pads etc. I have never studied japanese karate, but I can't believe that is true. When someone hits a bag or pad it is essentially a non-moving target so yes, using your arguments, it is easy to show power, but that does not mean it is functional.

Just pop along to your local sports centre. watch the Karate class and play "spot the impact pad". Odds are you won't find any.

Toudy, as for not being instructed correctly, I would dearly love for us to compare our impact that we can generate, and I would let you choose the strike. Karate occasionally produces people who can hit hard, but is the exception rather than the norm.

Kyukushinkai, some Goju Ryu and Shukokai (the style I trained in). They do at least train for impact.

As for your "snap" impact - show me where it was used in the early, pre glove UFCs. There were certainly a load of top Karate-Ka there. They were easy to spot too. They were the ones lying on their backs.

Look, if you want to tell yourself that Karate is where it's at, then fine. But don't poison the monds of others. Mainstream Karate has no evidence whatsoever that it is a good fighting art. And there is plenty of evidence that it is not. But you carry on imagining that your empty air punches are deadly if it boosts your confidence. Just don't get into any real fights because, in my experience, the vast majority of mainstream Karate, Kung Fu and TKD fighters are definately paper tigers.

[Thai Bri]

PS when I said "no evidence" I didn't include ridiculously exaggerated yarns about old masters who could defeat 20 men all at once...... Or other stories about "secret" fights.... I only include things that can be verified.

PPS - And people who train in Thai Boxing, but then fight under the Karate banner? They are the best evidence of the lot that mainstream karate is, indeed FRIGGIN USELESS!

[sherwinc]

Again, my apologies. And, yes it's Filipino. And your mom's right, learn a second language. It doesn't matter what kind - it still adds to your knowledge.

Much respects

That is what i mean, More fighting techniques, More Knowledge, More KungFu's Learned........ THE BETTER

and......

Lesser fighting techniques like those of Boxing, Kick Boxing, Karate....... THE WORST


Note:
Karate came from KungFu.

Masters of KungFu teach Japanese few low level techniques and that Japanese bring it to Japan and invented Karate in Okinawa.....

Here is a question.......

How can this low level techniques of KungFu to which is now known as Karate - become a far superior to KungFu?

like.......
(from lower to higher level fighting techniques)
i have 100 fighting techniques learned. i teach you only from 1 up to 5, i did not teach you 6 up to 100.
now you master my 1 up to 5 level of fighting techniques.
now you go to your home (Okinawa - Japan)
now you invented the 1st Karate (which composed of my 1 to 5 level of techniques)

Here is a stupid question:
How can this Karate(composed of 1 to 5 level of my techniques) be superior to my KungFu(composed of 1 to 100 level of my techniques)???????

CONVINCED??????????

Note:
Here is a good example......

In GoJoRyu Karate:
the 1st Kata of NgoChoKun KungFu is the Last Kata of GoJoRyu Karate.

In Shorin-Ryu Karate:
The SamChien of NgoChoKun is the Key to its five parts power while the SanChin of Okinawan Shorin-Ryu is a Shit.

you know???? i am also a yellow belt of Okinawan Shorin-Ryu before but i quit cause it is a stupid, there is not blocking, i mean, when the A punch B's chest, the B's chest hitted with a punch of A's...... then the B also punch to the chest of A..... and A's chest is hurt hitted with a B's punch.

while in KungFu..... it's s more on striking of forearms first before you can land your fist to the chest of your opponent. KungFu give an emphasis on BLOCKING HABBIT MANNER.

Note:
Even thou i am a yellow belt Shorin-Ryu Karate before, i usually hit my instructor at his chest even thou i will not win in sparring. But at least i hit him even few times.

while in KungFu, even thou how advance/scientific my combinations, even i do combining WingChun and ChiDianBun - i still cannot manage to land my fist unto my instructors chest. wow, i do believe in my combinations that even me i dont know where my medium level combinations started, but my fist and forearms are like those of autopilot (thru chisau) but still, i cannot hit my instructor with his advance level of ChiDianBun, NgoChoKun, Pakua, Hsing-I, combinations.......

I am lucky cause he dont notice that most of my attack is WingChun but still i cannot hit him just one. My instructor doesnt have a background in WingChun.

I repeat my stupid question:

How can this Karate(composed of 1 to 5 level of KungFu techniques) be superior to my KungFu(composed of 1 to 100 level of KungFu techniques) ???????

CONVINCED??????

[sherwinc]

Um no not really, i do understand what you are saying but is it possible that new techniques were created? I am not saying that karate is good, but i am just pointing that the phylosolhy that the orriginal is better doesnt always hold true.

Anyways there are good styles of kung fu, and crappy styles of kung fu. To go and say that all the styles are great is foolishness.

The possible reasons for the deterioration of KungFu from its traditional beginnings and up to now:
1. Mis-interpretation of the KungFu moves and passed to another kungfu students.
2. Fake KungFu instructors/masters who claim themselves good in KungFu
3. Teachings from KungFu Instructor to a KungFu Student have at least 1 or few error's that the KungFu Student soon become a KungFu Instructors and passed his knowledge with another 1 or few errors to catch by a new KungFu student. Error and mis-interpretation of moves seems increasing.
4. Death of many Good KungFu Instructors who did not pass their advance level KungFu moves to even their son - still, they did not teach.
5. Mixing of KungFu to any Non-KungFu Martial Arts. Truely a deterioration.
6. etc., etc., etc., and many more reasons lead to a KungFu deterioration.

For I believe learning the most Traditional Art of KungFu is the best. There is NO NEED TO REVISED EVERY KUNGFU CAUSE IT IS ALREADY CENTURY PROVEN A GOOD ART, since the existence of Humans before and until now, human's still have 2 arms, 2 legs, 1 head. There's no need to revised the century proven KungFu Art. Deterioration is the key to many of the KungFu as you see now.

In Martial Arts Category - KungFu is the Best
In KungFu Category - Shaolin based KungFu is the Best
But in KungFu Weaponry Category - Taoist Based KungFu is the Best

[brokenelbow]

Masters of KungFu teach Japanese few low level techniques and that Japanese bring it to Japan and invented Karate in Okinawa.....

LMAO, this guy is a troll.

In Shorin-Ryu Karate:
The SamChien of NgoChoKun is the Key to its five parts power while the SanChin of Okinawan Shorin-Ryu is a Shit.

BTW, sanchin is a Goju kata, not shorin.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

LMAO, this guy is a troll.

BTW, sanchin is a Goju kata, not shorin.

Ah someone who knows his forms

studying 10 years in China and receiving a teachinglicence from that teacher, doesn't sound like only low level techniques to me, the okinawans aren't stupid or something, they can see if others are doing stuff they aren't been introduced to

there were century old cultural and economic ties between China and Okinawa
Chinese officials went to Okinawa and vice versa
No reason to withhold anything

[brokenelbow]

I do know that Eizo Shimbukuro added sanchin to his Shorin-ryu as a black belt kata and with several caveats having to do with age. That being said it's not shorin-ryu and sherwinc is still as dumb as a doorstop.

[Nit]

U Turn, Karate and many others can be very bad if your too trusting

It takes a big person to admit this to themself, especially as I have done this for over 8 years.

But

I have in recent year been learning how to improve my fighting and defense, I found that what I was being taught lacked and as a consequence I looked around and samples other arts and techniques. I did all of this in my mind under the banner of Karate as those were the classes I was attending every week, it didn't matter that what we were actually doing was based on Kung Fu, Ju Jitsu, Boxing etc because I was using it to enhance my Karate knowledge.

What I realise now, especially after meeting Bri and getting my arse shoved down me so far it came back out again , is that I don't really 'do' Karate, I've modified my fighting style so much that while you can argue its Wado Ryu because I do this this and this, you can also argue that its not because Karateka won't do this that and the other.

I don't even think I come under mixed martial arts, because so far I have not come across any MA institution that teaches you to talk to your opponent (Mind you theres no shinto ryu or krav clubs near me) before you go in with fists on fire or whoopee doo 16 steps to guaranteed victory stance.

In fact there's a lot of things that I feel are wrong about what I have subconciously learnt, its a very strange feeling to have to overcome what you thought was natural movement into something actually useful.

Even when I realised that my Karate was lacking and I purposefully went out to improve it (myself not the art), I still lacked when it really counted, great I could go out and punch kick and slide my way out of the general detrius on the street, but I never felt confident that I could actually handle a 'big man' confrontation, and even when I could it had taken me many years to get there and I had changed my style so much and I still was in danger of getting very horribly hurt.

You probably can tell that my change of tack is down to the 'Dimitri' effect (that and getting my bottom plundered by Bri ) and I really see completely what Bri has been saying all along, before it was mutual respect but now its full understanding.

To be good at self defense we have to stop wasting energy arguing or which is better, what has which, and why he did that then, and why that is so crap cause this has those, that, and doesnt do this.

Instead we have to wake up and realise that we have to know when to hold onto somethign and when to let go. This isn't a troll don't get me wrong, but you can learn and learn and drill and get some effectiveness out of almost anything if you try hard enough, when if you had let it go you may have found another 2, 4, 100 techniques that were easier to learn or far more effective. I've always thought I was open to this but I've subconciously had this arrogance that my choice of martial art can't be wrong, just interpreted wrong.

It been said before so many times, especially on here, X kick is good because, X kick is bad etc, eventually the discussion ends with well if you train hard enough its effective but for the masses theres better things to learn.

I'm sure if I practised with a paper clip 20 hours a day I would be the deadliest master of the clippy in 30 years time, actually that sounds kinda cool... Erm well you get my point (clip?)

Oh and one final thing for all you big guys out there, if you ever ever ever take Bri up in a fight, don't do kata - even if you can effectively use your kata against others in sparring (like I can/could), if you do he'll show you his new double-ear throw, trust me it hurts.

[Thai Bri]

Thanks mate. For the compliment, and the ears. We use them as saucers......

Toudy - listen man. I have been where you are. So has Justin. You are in the wrong place. There's nothing I can do to convince you, but you are.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Shure you have been where I am, yeah right

I've used karate as my base to work from, never the end to all means
niether did I see any of the arts I crosstrained in as an end
Why did I crosstrain in the first place, well I want to know as much as possible about a lot of MAs and wanted to train more than 2x a week

furthermore, I'm not even training in karate right now, but not because I think it lack but because I understand it's principles and wanteed to do something completely different ( I was thinking of arnis before I found a school that does MMA in the erea)
Never ever, when I'm crosstraining will I do karate, I will move according to the art, I only use the karatemoves as comparison, I compare what is instructed with it and therefore could alway easy adapt

Adaptation is what is key, change to whatever is needed at that time
the few times I had to fight karate was enough, I din't even have to resort to any of the other training I had

[choylifutrocks]

Karate aint so bad.

Well, I wanted to address the topic of the thread "Karate aint so bad."

I agree, Karate ain't so bad....but, it aint so good either.

Nit...I can't believe you let Thai Bri do a "double-ear throw" on you. Ha, ha... j/k. On a more serious note, what the hell is that?

Thai Bri, I'd like to start a rant and noone knows how to rant like yourself (that's a compliment). Here it is, "point sparring". It's related to Karate, and many other MA's, so its not treading too far off from topic.

Anyway, point sparring has to be THE WORST thing anybody could ever do if they are interested in self-defence. I had my first experience with it and it was horrifying. I wanted to f*cking puke! At first, little wimpy as wirey guys were scoring points on me, even though they couldn't knock out a 5 yr. old parapalegic. I had trouble with NOT following through on kicks, so then I just stuck to "aggressive" boxing and they didn't know what to do. I was too close to kick, and they couldn't stop my hands, it was hilarious.

Moral of the story, if you point spar, like some of us play cards, for pure sport cool, but don't count on it doing anything but hurting you, dare i say, exponentially worse than even katas.

[Thai Bri]

There isn't really a double ear throw.... But, wehen Shredding, if you get a good hold of both of the ears, then both pull and twist the head, you can take a man down as easy as pie. And yo are spot on re point sparring. That is YET ANOTHER way in which Karate IS SO BAD. Yet again it teaches you how to do it WRONG!

Toudy - so, Karate isn't so bad. But you no longer do it. Great logic......... Haw haw haw!

[Toudiyama[NL]]

there's pointsparring and there's pointsparring

In the US events with those awful safe T Kicks and punches people would score with and open hand backfist that only hits with the tip of the fingers
Or they would drop into the oponent their feet would be almost 2 meter behinf the hands hanging in the air touching with the tips only
Flimsy techniques and touching someone would be a score
A punch with the arm stretched would still score, which is utter nonsense

A pulled punch is something different from a punch that is too short

In WKF competition, it should be clear you pull your punches even though it is lightcontact to the head ( to body heavier contact is allowed) meaning, if you wish, you should be able to make heavier contact ( which isn't possible if your arm is stretched out)
What they should get rid of is the waza ari score for techniques like uraken (backfist)


Appart from that I always told my student that even though they could do well inb point competition, that doesn't mean swat on the streets, hence we had competition sparring, dojo sparring and all round sparring ( going to the ground allowed) as well as pointing out how a stylized technique would look in it's practical application

I think a teacher that ventures on his own in the same area as his teacher, should be chanhing the excercises he uses, if he does everything the same as his teacher, why then open a new school in the area? I can come up with nothing else but ego

what's wrong with TMA but actually with any MA is that people think because they reached a certain level ( be it black belt or a champion) they can teach, which is strange since nobody seems to think that you can teach at the university once you passed your exams there
As long as we allow people to teach without any specific training for it, it will all be downhill, no exceptions for any Martial Art
If an art like BJJ keeps allowing blue belt to teach without any extra training, they too will eventually have their problems
Where GJJ can keep their belt exams centralized, BJJ can not, nobody has the patent on BJJ, if I want to start a school and call what I do BJJ, then nobody cabn stop me from doing that
Already you see crappy MT/KB schools pop up

If we don't come up with a system to garantee that sport instructors comply to a certain standard, it will get worse in the future

So to get back to the Topic, Karate ain't so bad but only if you have a good instructor ( not a copycat black belt)

[brokenelbow]

Listen to TB, he went to a sport karate school and knows.

Nothing wrong with karate, just how it's mostly taught.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

There isn't really a double ear throw.... But, wehen Shredding, if you get a good hold of both of the ears, then both pull and twist the head, you can take a man down as easy as pie. And yo are spot on re point sparring. That is YET ANOTHER way in which Karate IS SO BAD. Yet again it teaches you how to do it WRONG!

Toudy - so, Karate isn't so bad. But you no longer do it. Great logic......... Haw haw haw!

I wrote the reason why, to start with I stopped teaching because of an argument, I lost interest in teaching, and think have learned most there is to learn about the principles of karate ( appart from Kyusho but can't find a school that does that in the area)
I just want to be physically active and MMA is what does that for me, I don't need to learn more
I already told you the main reason for crosstraining was filling up my week with training

If there would be a Kyokushin Budokai ( Jon Blumming's style of karate that intergrates groundfighting) or a Ashihare or Enshin school maybe I would be doing that

Seems you read something completely different than what I write


Let me do the same with your words
You took longer to do your current art properly than the other student since karate is so bad for you and is actually couterproductive and this must have been some 2 years longer for you
Other that did MT before they came to the art you do went very fast compared to someone who never trained before, you went slow compared to the untrained student

this the conclusion we must draw from your conclusions

Darn I actually didn't twist your words, this is what you have claimed indirectly