ninjitsu

[sherwinc]

The way I'm picturing this nonsense is that, as someone punches you, you block it by punching his hand or wrist as it is in flight towards your bonce.

in the Ninjitsu...... i really like the way Sho Kusugi do on his movies......

and i am not convinced with those of Michael Dudikov......

[jcmack]

Here is the technique as I do it. There are a couple of methods. For a more traditional punch, you actually sidestep the punch. If your timing is correct, the opponent won't realize you are sidestepping until they are extended pretty far outside their body with the punch. Simultaneously as you sidestep the punch to the outside of their punch, your hand comes up as your body turns. A combination of your body turning and your arm begining to extend out gives the force behind the punch. The contact points are either on the back of the opponents hand or on their wrist since from this position both are vulnerable to breaks. The point of this punch is not to incapacitate the opponent but to hurt the opponent. This can cause hesitation on future punches, hesitation to use that fist to punch if the bones are broken, distraction while you perform another technique, or interruption of balance of the opponent. This is the most traditional method in ninjutsu. But it has it's weaknesses. It can be used on most punches except for jabs since a trained fighter can have incredibly fast jabs.

For jabs I usually slightly turn my body and move very slightly to one side while bringing my fist up and wracking the back of the opponents hands with my knuckles. This is technically considered a punch of the opponents hand also. It isn't as powerful as the aforementioned punch, but it can still produce breaks of the small bones of the back of the hand with enough practice. It works because for a person to jab you they must extend outside of their body far enough to hit you. You on the other hand can keep your arms and fists in close to your body and wait on their fists to come to you to tag them. It is very frustrating and painful to the other fighter and serves the same purposes as the above mentioned techique. In my experience fighting boxers who fight very defensively at first(not extending themselves out very far by using mainly jabs), it incites them to commit to more aggressive forms of attack leaving them open and off balance.

This still my not be clear to someone who has never seen it done. I know Hikage is a ninjutsu practitioner also. I know you have at least seen the first technique. Perhaps you could help clear it up if people still don't understand.

[Hikage]

This is fascinating because I learned it differently, slightly. We go to the inside and emphasis is for the soft spot of the inside of the arm, although any specific spot will do depending on the situation. Ninjitsu is based on creativity and change, and the basics are designed to change with the body type (of uke and tori), environment, attitude, health, etc.

I think your explanation is very well worded, but I will help if someone needs it as you requested.

-Hikage

[darrianation]

Here is the technique as I do it. There are a couple of methods. For a more traditional punch, you actually sidestep the punch. If your timing is correct, the opponent won't realize you are sidestepping until they are extended pretty far outside their body with the punch. Simultaneously as you sidestep the punch to the outside of their punch, your hand comes up as your body turns. A combination of your body turning and your arm begining to extend out gives the force behind the punch. The contact points are either on the back of the opponents hand or on their wrist since from this position both are vulnerable to breaks. The point of this punch is not to incapacitate the opponent but to hurt the opponent. This can cause hesitation on future punches, hesitation to use that fist to punch if the bones are broken, distraction while you perform another technique, or interruption of balance of the opponent. This is the most traditional method in ninjutsu. But it has it's weaknesses. It can be used on most punches except for jabs since a trained fighter can have incredibly fast jabs.

For jabs I usually slightly turn my body and move very slightly to one side while bringing my fist up and wracking the back of the opponents hands with my knuckles. This is technically considered a punch of the opponents hand also. It isn't as powerful as the aforementioned punch, but it can still produce breaks of the small bones of the back of the hand with enough practice. It works because for a person to jab you they must extend outside of their body far enough to hit you. You on the other hand can keep your arms and fists in close to your body and wait on their fists to come to you to tag them. It is very frustrating and painful to the other fighter and serves the same purposes as the above mentioned techique. In my experience fighting boxers who fight very defensively at first(not extending themselves out very far by using mainly jabs), it incites them to commit to more aggressive forms of attack leaving them open and off balance.

This still my not be clear to someone who has never seen it done. I know Hikage is a ninjutsu practitioner also. I know you have at least seen the first technique. Perhaps you could help clear it up if people still don't understand.

So, you say you have used these types of techniques in the street now we are supposed to believe that these are functional techniques for everyone. I have always had a hard time understanding the rational behind the “Technique works because I used it once”, unless you are talking about a technique that is used often, and works often.

You say you’ve used it and it worked, then I have a few questions for you. Was it your skill, or just luck? Was it the ineptitude or the lack of mental/physical toughness of the guy you used it on? Was it the best technique you could of used? Did it have its desired effect (immobilizing his arm)? Would it work again against someone, hmmmm…lets say stronger, faster, less inept?

Because you used it once or twice and made it work once or maybe twice doesn’t make it a functional technique. I have a couple of definitions of terms for you-

Effectiveness: Simply put, having the desired effect.

Functionality: Having the desired effect for the average person with average mental and physical attributes under stress, fear, and adrenaline on a consistent basis.

Hallmarks of a functional technique: A techniques that is simple to learn (gross motor skill), easy to retain (without a large amount of time and training dedicated to it), that can be used under stress, fear, and adrenaline, has more than one application, and its effectiveness can be reproduced under varying conditions, circumstances, and against people with various degrees of mental/physical toughness, and skill.

Hall marks of a non-functional technique: A complicated technique (fine motor skilled) that requires time and dedication and lots of reinforcement to perfect and retain it, one that has to be executed flawlessly before it will work, one that takes a intricate setup to use, one that relies on reaction, exact timing, and precise targeting, one that is limited in its application.

This technique of intercepting the incoming punch relies on reaction, punching the bicep, brachial plexus, or wrist takes exact timing and precise targeting. It has limited application. Therefore according to my litmus test it falls under the non-functional category. It is only effective for a few people under certain circumstances and is not a high percentage technique. What if you react and commit to his feint and end up eating some other follow-up technique/s You make it sound simple, but someone can punch the back of my hands all day and I’ll be keep coming right at them.

Remember guys that stress, fear, and adrenaline can be a limiting factor on what you can do. So what you maybe able to pull off flawlessly in the dojo/gym/ school/ whatever you call the place where you learn and train, you may not be so successful in the street.

[jcmack]

Darrianation:
In answer to your questions:

My skill allowed it to work. It is a technique I have used many times. It works with a high percentage of success and is easily repeatable by me.

It wasn't the ineptitude of the people I have used it on. It is such a simple technique that comes out of nowhere. People don't really expect it nor can you afford to, otherwise you hesitate on all of your punches. Most people would be caught off guard on the first shot or two, or until they realized it wasn't just luck. Then they would have to change their strategy. But getting them to commit to another course of action is one of the goals anyway.

Was it the best technique i could have used? Strange question. There really is no best technique to use. If it works (EFFECTIVE) then I guess it is a good technique. It depends on the opponent, and how I happen to be thinking. If I were to watch a video of the fights I have used it in, maybe I could have used something different, but that's the way it is in every fight.

Would it work against someone...
stronger: yes. Since my body usually is simultaneously moved out of the way of the attack, I don't have to worry about how strong they are as long as I'm not taking a square hit.

faster? I've never fought the man with the fastest hands on earth, so I couldn't say from experience. I have fought and sparred with people of very fast handspeed and it works just well. It is because the person has to extend their arms out so far to hit you, but your hands are kept close in to your body requiring less distance for you to move.

more inept: it would probably work the first time or two. But the inept fighter would stop extending out punches for me to hit and have other effective techniques to rely on. I have had this happen against really good fighters and sparring partners.

Final notes: I get the feeling that people are trying to attack this technique because they don't see how it could work. This is not an end all technique. You won't win a fight by hitting a persons hands or wrist. In fact, when I fight, I might hit a persons hands twice, or not at all. All fighting is situational. I would never stand back and make an entire fight out of hitting the person's incoming fists. That would be ridiculous and take a long time to win a fight. However, I am a man of opportunity. When it presents intself I like to know how to take advantage of it. It depends on where you are, where and who the other people are, the environment and many other factors. But this is one technique out of miliions. It is effective and repeatable, not coincidence. It can miss, just as any other technique can.

PS: you are trying to make the technique harder than it really is. It does take timing and precision, but not any more precision than punching. If the person faints and you move to his side, you are still distanced away from your opponent and to his side. You would have ample time to react to a new technique he attempts, assuming you are skilled enough to avoid the technique to begin with. You are applying limits to a technique you have never tried or have very limited knowledge of. Very FUNCTIONAL because I use it often and it works.

If you have any more questions I will try and field them.

[jcmack]

Hikage,
I have learned the method you have described to. Just remember that any techniques applied inside can usually also be applied outside. Ura and omote Ichimonji no Kata.

[darrianation]

Final notes: I get the feeling that people are trying to attack this technique because they don't see how it could work. This is not an end all technique. You won't win a fight by hitting a persons hands or wrist. In fact, when I fight, I might hit a persons hands twice, or not at all. All fighting is situational.

If you use it twice in one fight and it won't end the fight, then why are you using it? A strike like this in my understanding (gunting, destructions, unarmed defangs, etc) is to immobilize the offending limb, if you are not immobilizing it, then why are you calling it effective?

[darrianation]

My skill allowed it to work. It is a technique I have used many times. It works with a high percentage of success and is easily repeatable by me.

Just how many fights have you been in? If you have been in as many fights as you would have us believe then you have a serious problem.

[jcmack]

Not all techniques are used to end a fight. As I have said before and will say again, it is used to either open up a defensive fighter, distract from or set up another technique, etc., etc., etc. Using your train of thought, a jab is also not an effective technique since it doesn't immobilize the opponent or limbs and it won't end the fight.

I have been in many fights when I was a bouncer. Don't assume things. This is useful in fighting as well as in life.

[darrianation]

Not all techniques are used to end a fight. As I have said before and will say again, it is used to either open up a defensive fighter, distract from or set up another technique, etc., etc., etc. Using your train of thought, a jab is also not an effective technique since it doesn't immobilize the opponent or limbs and it won't end the fight.

I have been in many fights when I was a bouncer. Don't assume things. This is useful in fighting as well as in life.

Now, it sounds like we are talking about two different techniques. Are saying that you are just knocking the hand away to create an opening? That's different from what the discussion had been about; a simple parry or a hand slap will do that.

[Hikage]

Now, it sounds like we are talking about two different techniques. Are saying that you are just knocking the hand away to create an opening? That's different from what the discussion had been about; a simple parry or a hand slap will do that.

No no, he's saying that in instances where an attacker throws a jab, where he doesn't throw his whole body into the punch, it is likely to create an opening and create only a minimal amount of pain, such as a slap might. However, it is important to note that the basic technique here, as it is described in it's most fundamental state is not designed to be used on a jab, rather the type of punch that has some force and body weight behind it. E.g. a hook, haymaker, street-bralwer-style punch, body shots, etc. Each one requires a slightly different approach depending on how the punch enters which specific sector. As I've stated before, a jab calls for a different protocol. And in the case of a jab, one cannot expect the same results as with the other punches.

-Hikage

[Thai Bri]

History does, indeed, change.

[jcmack]

Hikage is correct. So far I have talked about two variations on an idea of punching the punch. The first and most fundamental as Hikage said is used against a slower more powerful punch. The degree of pain you can inflict depends on where you can hit the punch and how forcefully you can hit it. This is why I like to hit the back of the hands. It is extremely painful and easy to break the metacarpals(the bones you can feel on the back of your hand.)

[jcmack]

Hikage, what city are you in? I'm always looking for training partners.

[Hikage]

Hikage, what city are you in? I'm always looking for training partners.

Near York, PA. The first capitol of the states.. Be happy to meet with you.

-Hikage