Naihanchi (Tekki), Sanchin, and Tensho Kata

[Thai Bri]

Anyone belive in the effectiveness of these katas? How often do you train them?

ps - as per the first post in the thread.... this was about how EFFECTIVE these Katas are. And, preumably, not about how effective they are at making a cuppa tea.

[Nothingness]

I have some clips for these katas. I have been watching them over and over again. I think your Tekki is really important; it is the basic power training. If the Tekki is done properly, your punches will be automatically be strong. I am comparing couple clips, but the most impressive one is from Mas Oyama; his execution was strong and correct in my opinion

I am not going to go over how "katas" will help your training. A user, Konghan, has already elaborated this issue in so many different topics. You can use the search function to find them.


Oldskooldude: I think for your health interest, Sanchin will be the most appropriate. Best of luck.


Regards

[Thai Bri]

Yes. Right.

There's none so blind........

[IPON]

I believe in practicing my "katas". I believe that breaking them down for the usage, while practing them with power, will develop your skills. I am not practicing Karate, but I am particulary interested in those katas I mentioned before. I see them as very simple, but "pure" and very deadly if properly developed.

I am curious why you just study kata without wanting to learn the MA??

[Nothingness]

Ipon:

I am learning a different art. In my art, we use the "katas" for the basic training. Above the physical training, "katas" are used for the conditioning. This involves the training of correct power delivery and correct reactions. The "katas" are then used with its "counter-katas" for 2 persons practices; these are similar to what you see in 70s Hong Kong chop socky's "fights". This process is very important for us for we see the usage of the "katas". The teacher will further elaborate the movements to give the students the keypoints. "Katas", for me, are the summary of what the discipline understands. The "katas" in my disciplines are short because we require full power to execute them. Proficient Ngo Cho Kun (Wu Zu Quan) masters are capable to take down the opponents in one or two attacks.


There are, of course, much more training methods for the disciplines such as body hardening and free-fight, but the main interest of this discussion is in the kata. Learning different Katas from different disciplines give me a better understanding of what the masters (creators) of the katas understand of the arts.

[Thai Bri]

I pity you.

[Nothingness]

No need to pity me. You are always welcome to come over to Orange County area to prove that I am wrong . Otherwise, it is all talk. No proves whatsoever. Thin air.




If I win, then I am right. If I lose, I will have my butt cheerfully kick and I can learn better ways. I have nothing to lose, anyway. Do you?


I am more interested to learn something useful that can make me better than trying to "prove" to some guy on the net (without any demo) that I am right.

[Thai Bri]

I was in Orange County in January. What a shame we had not already had this conversation then. No, I do not mean I would have kicked your rear end in some silly challenge match........ But I do think I could have demonstrated your folly in believing this outdated, mythological, already disproven nonsense that Kata somehow improves fighting potential.

The difference between you and I si that I have been whee you are now. I know all the arguments for Kata. It was hard experience and an open mind that allowed me to see through the veil of unsubstantiated bull shit.

[Nothingness]

I do not mean to emphasize that "kata" is THE way of training. It is only one of so many ways of training. For me, it is similar with doing a shadow boxing. I do some other forms of training incudling weight and bag.


I regard your and any other opinions. However, your posts on this topic have only been negations without actual postive input.

If your point is trying to convincing kata practicioners that kata is useless, there is no point for antagonizing them. Postive contributions based on your experiences will likely be more beneficial.

And no, I don't make my own tea. We do have Starbucks .


Please let me know if you will come to OC area again. We can have a friendly talk. People are usually harsher on the net, but they are quite nice when meeting face to face.

[Thai Bri]

Thats true.

Kata is very UNlike shadow boxing. Kata is pre-arranged and robotic in nature. I particularly laugh at the Traditional forms that get yo to hold your arm out at the end of each strike. The chin is up, big blocks are used, and the mechanics of the Kata even have you moving INTO range in order to block these invisible attacks. They are nonsense of the highest order, and practiced by no-one who consistently wins fights for real.

Shadow Boxing is spontaneous (that is the main benefit after all) and, if done in front of a mirror, as it should be, is excellent to check on your EFFECTIVE form, i.e. how you keep covered as you move.

I know you are not saying that Kata is the only way to train. I am saying that any time whatsoever on it is not only a waste, it is also counter productive.

I've had this argument many tims. It follows a pattern...and then people fall back on "I'm preserving tradition" etc., as each of their claims that Kata somehow improves power, balance or co-ordination etc. etc. fall to pieces. But then, sure enough, next time it comes up they are at square 1 again.

Tell me this. Boxing is multi million pound/dollar sport. Don't you think they would practice Kata if it would help them fight?

[old skool dude]

I want to address a couple of points about your last post. I know that it will probably not change your mind, but hopefully I will get you to at least consider the position that Kata practitioners have.
First and foremost, If you have been following the posts of Kata advocates like myself, and others, I'm sure you'll agree that we DONT practice Kata EXCLUSIVELY, and we have never stated, or implied (I hope) that you can use these patterns verbatim in a fight. I maintain that kata is a "close relative" of shadow boxing as both use prescribed patterns against imaginary opponents. A standard jab/cross/hook combination is a PATTERN, it is a PREDICTABLE sequence of movements that practitioners of the sport have proven to work and flow together. A Frontkick/front elbow strike/low side kick is a PATTERN it is also a PREDICTABLE sequence of movements (in this case taken from one of my goju katas) Shadow boxing practices their sequence spontaneously, and karate practitioners do not. One is common to both is the PATTERNS they utilize. Escrima does a form of shadow boxing called "carenza" that takes a sequence of movements that have proven to work in real situations, that a person can utilize

you mentioned that . " I am saying that any time whatsoever on it is not only a waste, it is also counter productive."

A waste of time compared to what? "real fighting" How can something that teaches you focus, concentration, and balance be counter productive.Kata adds balance to your combative training.

You also mentioned that "
the mechanics of the Kata even have you moving INTO range in order to block these invisible attacks. They are nonsense of the highest order, and practiced by no-one who consistently wins fights for real.

The karate concept of "moving into range in order to block" is a standard martial arts concept utilized in many arts. Attacking into the opponents attack is something even Musashi advocated in his book of five rings. Arnis certainly uses this concept of going into range to block, redirect, jam, or "attack the attack" of an opponent.

You mentioned also...
Boxing is multi million pound/dollar sport. Don't you think they would practice Kata if it would help them fight?[/QUOTE]

The operative word here is that boxing is a SPORT. Karate is not. (at least in the traditional sense.) Obviously boxers dont practice kata to help them fight because they are coming from a western perspective, and it doesnt serve their purpose to do so.

[Thai Bri]

1. I already addressed the issue of you not practicing Kata exclusively.

2. A jab/cross/hook may be a "pattern", though the most usual phrase to use is a combination. This three move series of movements (that do flow well) is a world away from a Kata, which has a predertmined series of movements at least 10 times the size, spanning a whole host of supposed multiple opponents. So they are not the same thing at all.

3. Kata may well teach you "focus". But focus on what? Same as re "concentration". Concentration on what? And "balance"? Balance for what? NONE OF THESE ARE THE SAME AS THOSE REQUIRED FOR REAL FIGHTING! You will never see the same style of movement used in Kata used in a real fight. Never. Its like sitting on a stool and learning to drive an imaginary car. get behind the wheel of a real car and you will be hopeless.

4. It is a recognised tactic to move in on the attack. It takes courage and skill, but pays great dividends if you do it correctly. But this is in response to an attack that will hit you anyway.... not one that would actually miss without your own forward movement.

5. I know boxing is a sport, whilst Karate.....well, it shouldn't be, but it is now a sport........ But, even if it wasn't, so what? You have to point out a RELEVANT difference, not just a difference. Boxing is full contact. Yes, it does have rules and gloves...... but it involves two combatants finding the most effective ways to hit each other without being hit themselves. Kata does NOT help that process, neither for sport nor real fighting purposes. And, get this, when's the last time you heard about a karateka actually beating a boxer? I have NEVER seen a verifiable case. People do, of course, point out fighters wh call themselves Karateka winning tournaments. But, when you take a closer look, these so called karateka train and move like kickboxers. they are Karateka in name only.


Let me tell you again. I trained Karate for five years. I worked hard, and also had the same beliefs as you. I have been whee you are now.

But I transcended the rubbish they teach. I outgrew it.

Do yourself a favour. Just pop along to any boxing or Thaiboxing gym and test your Karate skills. Let us all know how you get on. personally, I got the shit kicked out of me.

[old skool dude]

Let me tell you again. I trained Karate for five years. I worked hard, and also had the same beliefs as you. I have been whee you are now.

But I transcended the rubbish they teach. I outgrew it.

Do yourself a favour. Just pop along to any boxing or Thaiboxing gym and test your Karate skills. Let us all know how you get on. personally, I got the shit kicked out of me.[/QUOTE]

Thai, my apologies for jumping to a conclusion about your experience. I hadn't realized that you had trained in a karate previously, and did try to utilize it. Based on your experience with it, I can certainly see why you have come to the conclusions that you have. I certainly cant argue with YOUR experiences because they are your experiences, and not mine. Having read your rebuttal, I can also see that you have given the matter much thought, and I now genuinely see your point of view more clearly. I might add,without sounding condescending, ( I dont mean to, really) I feel your aruguments were presented very logically. I dont claim to know you, are your personal experieinces but based on my readings of other posts that you've made to other people(which frankly , were often insulting) led me to believe that you were and egotistical narrow minded pinhead.
I can see that you're not. So again, My apologies. I hope you accept it.

My personal experience with Karate has been different. My school was a fighting school, my teacher, although he taught "traditional" Goju with the katas and all, also taught us functional fighting techniques. When I left the school and went to a jkd gym where they did the thai boxing structure, I found that I had to make adjustments in my approach to fighting. Nevertheless, my past experiences prepared me for the new level in training. The Focus I was referring to earlier was the ability to concentrate on the task at hand, without internal distractions, and "background noise" In a combat situation you must focus on what is happening externally ( how your opponent is moving, reacting, etc.) and internally ( your reactions, fears, frustrations.) I have been, more times than not, able to do this, due to my earlier training.

I was able to survive the sparring sessions because I was tough. ANd I got that way due to my traditional training.

If you dont mind, and I hope that you dont, could you go into what that experience was like for you? I know that you dont "owe" me an explaination, but I am genuinely curious about a fellow martial artist's ( in this case, you) evolutionary process. I shared enough about my background, so I hope that you dont mind sharing.
Peace.

[Thai Bri]

That's what I said.......

[Nothingness]

Thai Bri,

The "katas" in Ngo Cho Kun are very short and executed differently from Karate's katas.

I am not interested in the elegance of kata in itself. I clearly understand your point, but I think that you need to see the way NCK practicioners execute the katas. I am interested in looking at Karate's katas to understand the essence of the movements.


Regards