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  • #31
    Did he bounce back up ?

    Obese and drunk is one thing !

    Big strong and sober is another!

    Drunks are normally easy to combat!
    But they don't seem to feel the pain so much, well at least not at the time!

    Comment


    • #32
      Throws and takedown are very good weapons its like being punched all over the body, by the hard ground.

      Comment


      • #33
        A cousin of mine dropped out of judo after a few eeks ( as a kid) because he didn't like the falling
        I think he didn't take up karate because he didn't want to train whit a relative nor did he want to insult me by entering another dojo
        Ah well he later bulked up and managed to hold himself in fights
        but never did any other MA tho, so you could say we lost him because of the contact level of judo

        CKD: the chambered punch is basics in yakusoku ( pre arranged) kumite the hand isn't on the hip instead the wrist or forearm is in front of the solar plexus
        Problem is that some styles never leave the basics and have changed everything that follows to look like the basics ( they would have been wiser to do the opposite)
        A misundeerstanding of the O waza, ko waza ( big technique small technique) has been misinterpreted, instead of starting with thechniques that need largemuscle movement first after that those that require the finner muscles to move, they did everything in an exaggerated fashion first and laterr were suppose to finetune those in more power effecient movements, they never did the second part and got stuck in the large technique part
        Result a MA that claims the use of the hips is important for them but stances that fixate the hips totally ( and about the worst roundhouskicks I've ever seen)
        Pitty this is the style with the most followers and that these followers often think of other karate as less for instance because the stances aren't near as deep as theirs ( the one thing we probably all see as the worst feature of it)

        But we aren't talking about using karate as a whole more as a simple start, as base to work from
        Example, from the chambered hand, teach them to place the elbow where the hand used to be
        Karate ain't the end to all problems but it might be a start for the solution provided the right steps are taken to connect it to the more contact demanding stuff

        BTW although we are talking kids here, I've seen adults have the same fear for contact

        Comment


        • #34
          The simple truths about kids martial arts are that it has become a lucrative business.

          Instructors who can instruct in two years or so of their first karate lesson!

          They have little or no real combat experience.

          They only know the tripe that has been taught to them, and blindly believe it!
          Because for them to dis-believe it would undermine everything that they have worked on for two years and then their prestige and self-importance would evaporate!

          Some of the most arrogant, ignorant and egotistical people that I have ever met have been at the worst karate classes!

          whereas, the most down to earth and humble people that i have ever met have been at hardcore Muay Thai and bjja clubs!

          I can always remember once many years ago when I attende a Karate class and we all had to queue up and kick a big pad.
          Half the class could hardly connect.
          the rest were feeble attempts with a number of them losing balance and a few actually falling over!
          It was now my turn,
          So i thought i'd try and show them how it was done!
          So I slammed a powerful muay thai roundhouse into the pad!
          Thinking I would be praised!
          But I was scolded and tols "no, much too hard!"

          I was amazed that they didnt carry on
          "no, too accurate as well, and much too fast,and much too much disguise!"

          This type of thing is everything that is bad in MA.
          But kids know no difference!
          They listen to sensei and take on board what he says!

          The only way to teach kids is for them to do a real contact sport which is relatively safe.
          Judo,wrestling and boxing are all far superior to Karate!

          But personally I believe that it is my responsibility to teach my kids self-defence.
          So that they do not waste their time and energy making the same mistakes that I made but took years to find out!

          So i train them in 3 key area's.
          Full-muay Thai.
          Bjja(vale tudo style)
          And what I call street-fighting!

          Being careful to make training lighthearted and fun, none of this military discipline of karate!

          Because they are confident within themselves to be able to handle themselves in most situations.
          They do not feel that they have to prove anything and so are not at all aggressive, on the contrary they dont feel threatened so will make a joke rather than fight!
          Whereas some kids from some MA's feel that they are a cut-above and have a point to prove!
          Back to my earlier point about arrogant and ignorant people in some martial arts!

          Kids know no better than what they are told,
          that is why it is a parents responsibilty in my opinion to research and try the MA first!
          You may even learn to dance in the process..........
          yes by doing Kata!
          "care to dance?"

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by CHOKE UK
            McDonalds, food with the goodness taken out!

            karate, self-defence with the self-defence taken out!
            That sums it up for me. But you could throw in a few more arts alongside Karate too.

            Comment


            • #36
              Yes thai bri there are quite a few others.

              But they are not usually as popular as karate is with kids.

              karate has the market when it comes to kids self defence.

              This is probably the reason that karate has so little to do with real-self-defence.

              many kids are not prepared for real-self-defence.

              And therefore Mr Karate instructor would lose some of his huge profit!

              Thats ok for the one's who dont really want to learn a real self-defence.

              But what about the ones that do?

              So karate, it's make your mind up time!
              You are one or the other...dont profess to be both!

              When you consider what karate spends 95% of the time doing :

              various kata's
              Practicing unrealistic set moves(you punch me here and i'll block like this)
              Push-ups?
              num chuckers etc
              Outdated military discipline, standing in straight lines etc
              Talking in Japanese?
              Etc

              All this garbage and a lot more,
              leaves less than 5% generally to do the important stuff,
              hitting pads and sparring!!!

              So how would these kids stand a chance,
              against someone who really fights all the time, like Mr Bully boy.

              Or against another kid who has done a more hands on art?

              I have seen and heard of the result many,many times.

              Kids who do karate, even those that have achieved a high belt
              say brown or even above,
              when they get into fights dont actually use karate.
              Not because they are afraid of the power of karate.
              but because it simply doesnt work!

              They dont even usually complete one succesful blow, against a decent fighter??

              But i bet they are great movers at the school disco!
              At least, armed with their "Kata-dance-moves"
              they will be "stayling-alive!"
              To fight/dance another day!

              "anyone care to dance?"

              Comment


              • #37
                In my view kids don’t need to learn to fight as much as they need to learn to deal with problems without resorting to violence.

                First and foremost when it comes to kids and confidence it is really a matter of self-esteem. I have already given tips for parents to help improve their child’s self-esteem. Now let’s talk about how to teach kids Martial arts.

                Kids are very difficult to teach for a lot of instructors because of the patience it takes. Instructors have to exercise an extreme amount of patience when dealing with children. Instructors have to be able to listen, encourage, and practice what they preach. Kids will catch on quick to any ingenious practices. Instructors need to keep discipline without ruling with an iron fist. But remember kids want to learn and they are good at learning but their attention is quickly lost. Keep sessions short about an hour.

                The main concepts behind physical education of children:

                • addressing learning ‘beyond the physical’ - for example, developing appropriate values and attitudes
                • using a variety of student-centered teaching approaches
                • using co-operative learning approaches
                • acknowledging students’ individual learning styles

                To properly teach kids you need to develop and implement innovative curriculums. Classes need to be fun, informative, challenging, while teaching these main principles:

                Skills breakdown:

                • physical skills
                • self-management skills
                • competitive skills
                • communication skills
                • problem-solving skills
                • anger management
                • self-discovery
                • coping skills
                • teamwork

                Goals for Self-defense needs to centered on gross motor skills involving large muscle groups. Movements like punching, kicking, tumbling, lifting, walking, jumping, or running are all good for development of these skills.

                When beginning kids it a great idea to begin on tumbling exercise because it is fun and will get their attention right away.

                Here’s a list:

                1) Break falls
                2) Doing summersaults on the mats
                3) Having kids lay or kneel down and have student run and dive to a somersault over them (can have a competition to see who can jump the most kids)
                4) Throws- hip throws, reaps, and sweeps
                5) Implement drills that require escape from the bottom position and etc (don't make things to complicated, by teaching joint locks and chokes or fighting from the guard).

                The list goes on and on.

                Keep striking skills simple. Use lots of pad work kids like hitting things.

                Play lots of games but make sure they are working on some skill needed for self-defense. And finely role play, kids love this. Do SD scenarios things that deal with conflict resolution, like dealing with bullies, cutting in line, kids taking things or cheating in game, and etc. Teach them how not to be victims.

                Be creative and imaginative. Things can’t always be about fun and games but the fun and games you do should be geared towards developing muscular strength and endurance, flexibility, and cardiovascular endurance, as well as serves as a vehicle that helps children establish self-esteem and strive for achievable, personal goals.

                Remember- it is better for a child to develop skills to deal with conflict by using awareness, and verbal skills not using his fists, and Yes of course development of self-esteem!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Let me simplify things a bit here.

                  My point of view that is where I am coming from on this issue; is that young children do not need to learn to fight as much as they need to learn other skills.

                  I have divided it up into three stages.

                  Kid’s age… oh lets just for shits and giggles12 and under.

                  Main principles:
                  1) Build confidence through self-esteem
                  2) Peaceful conflict resolution
                  3) Learn how not to be a victim
                  4) Non-violent survival skills
                  5) Basic grappling skills
                  6) Basic striking skills

                  This is why I don’t mind karate. Karate is usually fun for the kiddies and as long as they teach the above I don’t have a problem with karate. I just don’t think kids need to learn to fight yet and Karate does not teach fighting skills to children or adult for that matter.

                  13-14 year olds, now they need to begin their fight training. They already have the skills from above.

                  Kids under 14 rarely are involved in serious (criminal assaults) where serious or life threatening injuries are involved.

                  Principles:
                  1) Ramp up their training
                  2) Improve physical conditioning
                  3) Improve physical skills
                  4) Learn self-defense strategy
                  5) Begin harder contact.

                  15 year old and up. This where real fighting skills need be known. The training should begin to be the same as the adult.

                  Principles:

                  1) Ramp up the training and Amp up the intensity.
                  2) Combat mindset
                  3) Combat conditioning
                  4) Full contact
                  5) All the dirty little tricks
                  6) Weapons skills

                  At the age of 13 is where they should (kids mature at different rates) begin to be mature enough to learn real SD and handle hard to moderate contact. Also if a child misses a stage or two then they can be taught both or all stages simultaneously.

                  Okay I’ll shut up now.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by AlexJitsu
                    Trust me, it requires little to no strength. Their own balance is disturbed, thus they fall. A martial art that requires muscle kind of sucks, you know what I mean?
                    Point taken;
                    My fault as I was thinking of the throws applied to my training partner at the club (which is not easy) but against unaware/untrained person..well it's easy.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by CHOKE UK
                      The simple truths about kids martial arts are that it has become a lucrative business.

                      Instructors who can instruct in two years or so of their first karate lesson!

                      They have little or no real combat experience.

                      They only know the tripe that has been taught to them, and blindly believe it!
                      Because for them to dis-believe it would undermine everything that they have worked on for two years and then their prestige and self-importance would evaporate!

                      Some of the most arrogant, ignorant and egotistical people that I have ever met have been at the worst karate classes!

                      whereas, the most down to earth and humble people that i have ever met have been at hardcore Muay Thai and bjja clubs!

                      I can always remember once many years ago when I attende a Karate class and we all had to queue up and kick a big pad.
                      Half the class could hardly connect.
                      the rest were feeble attempts with a number of them losing balance and a few actually falling over!
                      It was now my turn,
                      So i thought i'd try and show them how it was done!
                      So I slammed a powerful muay thai roundhouse into the pad!
                      Thinking I would be praised!
                      But I was scolded and tols "no, much too hard!"

                      I was amazed that they didnt carry on
                      "no, too accurate as well, and much too fast,and much too much disguise!"

                      This type of thing is everything that is bad in MA.
                      But kids know no difference!
                      They listen to sensei and take on board what he says!

                      The only way to teach kids is for them to do a real contact sport which is relatively safe.
                      Judo,wrestling and boxing are all far superior to Karate!

                      But personally I believe that it is my responsibility to teach my kids self-defence.
                      So that they do not waste their time and energy making the same mistakes that I made but took years to find out!

                      So i train them in 3 key area's.
                      Full-muay Thai.
                      Bjja(vale tudo style)
                      And what I call street-fighting!

                      Being careful to make training lighthearted and fun, none of this military discipline of karate!

                      Because they are confident within themselves to be able to handle themselves in most situations.
                      They do not feel that they have to prove anything and so are not at all aggressive, on the contrary they dont feel threatened so will make a joke rather than fight!
                      Whereas some kids from some MA's feel that they are a cut-above and have a point to prove!
                      Back to my earlier point about arrogant and ignorant people in some martial arts!

                      Kids know no better than what they are told,
                      that is why it is a parents responsibilty in my opinion to research and try the MA first!
                      You may even learn to dance in the process..........
                      yes by doing Kata!
                      "care to dance?"
                      Out of curiosity!
                      what Karate style did you? How many years? What level did you reach? Have you ever got hurt in street fight while/after learning Karate?
                      What do you teach/train at the moment?
                      No disrespect just wanna know your background so i can understand the meaning of posts especially when it comes to your despise of Karate.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        wardancer , you ask alot of personal questions,
                        shame you dont ask such searching questions about your beloved karate!

                        Like I have said before,
                        people with a "vested interest" will not listen to genuine criticms of the art!

                        People like you are the reason that karate is in such a state,
                        to the point where it borders upon losing sight of it's intention.

                        To improve it , first you must see what needs improving.
                        Genuine criticism should be welcomed!
                        But not if you dont want change,
                        a person with an agenda wouldnt want it to change!
                        hence the state-of-the-art!

                        Even your name wardancer seems to suggest that you prefer to do the kata-tango!

                        Wardancer, are you really saying that all the points raised on her from various knowlegable and experienced people on this site are simply rubbish!

                        Why, Just besause it suits you?

                        Wardancer, you tell me what is so great about Karate?
                        perhaps I am missing something?

                        Other than improving you War-dance-moves, what is so great?

                        People like you always poo-poo criticisms of karate,
                        but never say what is so great about it ??????

                        Well, warprancer? lol

                        I am not having a personal swipe at you,
                        but at your defence of an Art which is often more into Quids(£) than kids!

                        Anyone care to dance?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          wardancer, apologies if my last reply to you was a bit sarcastic, it was not my intention!
                          I think I misunderstood your post!

                          But if you look at darrianations reply,
                          he didnt exactly agree with me but he made a genuine attempt to consisely state his point.

                          Whereas your reply was a bit vague.

                          I dont despise karate,
                          I simply dont rate the instructors!

                          I am no Rickson Gracie or super-mario,
                          but always try to spar with the instructor as soonn as I can and am always embarrassed by how poor they are.

                          I have been to many Karate, and other martial art classes, even including trad jap jui jitsu, and most are totally inadequate, taught by inadequate people.

                          I remember the first thing I learnt at Muay Thai.
                          my instructor said we dont need belts to try and indicate how good we are,
                          we simply get into the ring!

                          When you do that, you learn real quick that karate doesnt work.

                          The people who say it does work,
                          speak in theory only.

                          I defy any karate person to get in the ring and come out afterwards and say"god, i'm glad i stuck to karate, it works a treat!"

                          I was in denial like so many others,
                          before i entered the ring.

                          Trust me denial can only take so many hard blows before it gives in!

                          Kid's shouldnt grow up with a false sence of security thinking that they can handle themselves in a self-defence situation just because they have a pretty coloured belt!
                          But instructors often give that impression.
                          they should explain that this will help you no more than box-robics etc

                          when I was a lad all that was common was boxing and thats where we all went!
                          Boxing doesnt brag about being a self-defence and having to wear belts to show status, but atleast it can be used as a self-defence more effectively than Karate!
                          Anyone in denial, feel free to enter the "ring-of-truth!"
                          l
                          It should be about....Kids not quids(£)

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Saw this on Pedro Sauer's website:

                            "Professor Pedro Sauer was born and raised in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, where from an early age, he began training in the martial arts. At age five, he began boxing and later took up judo and taekwondo. At age fifteen, however, his friend, Rickson Gracie, invited him to train jiu-jitsu with his younger brother, Royler, who at the time was only nine years old. The outcome of this experience convinced him that jiu-jitsu was the most effective of all the martial arts, and he began training the very next day."

                            ....apparently he was choked out!

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Choke UK:
                              My username is after the Haka performed by the All Black rugby team (New zealand)...I think by your username you are from UK so you might know what I talking about. Nothing to do with the Kata. LOL, my username does not stand for Kata-dancer.

                              Look, I can understand your frustration. you must be use to converse with less annoying user.
                              However, my questions are not really that personal? It's not like I am asking your age..gender..race..phone number...
                              My questions are relevant the thread: you say Karate Club is a rip off for Kids/anybody..Thai Box is the best.
                              I still need to know 'to what level of Karate, what style, defeat in street fight you have experienced' for me to be able to understand the validity of your point.
                              I do apology if I have offended by asking for your Karate experience?
                              Apparently, you do not have any?
                              I have Nidan in Shotokan karate, green (red + 1 tip) in Kyokushin, now I am fully on BJJ and Thai Box...

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by CHOKE UK
                                wardancer , you ask alot of personal questions,
                                shame you dont ask such searching questions about your beloved karate!

                                Like I have said before,
                                people with a "vested interest" will not listen to genuine criticms of the art!

                                People like you are the reason that karate is in such a state,
                                to the point where it borders upon losing sight of it's intention.

                                To improve it , first you must see what needs improving.
                                Genuine criticism should be welcomed!
                                But not if you dont want change,
                                a person with an agenda wouldnt want it to change!
                                hence the state-of-the-art!

                                Even your name wardancer seems to suggest that you prefer to do the kata-tango!

                                Wardancer, are you really saying that all the points raised on her from various knowlegable and experienced people on this site are simply rubbish!

                                Why, Just besause it suits you?

                                Wardancer, you tell me what is so great about Karate?
                                perhaps I am missing something?

                                Other than improving you War-dance-moves, what is so great?

                                People like you always poo-poo criticisms of karate,
                                but never say what is so great about it ??????

                                Well, warprancer? lol

                                I am not having a personal swipe at you,
                                but at your defence of an Art which is often more into Quids(£) than kids!

                                Anyone care to dance?
                                if you only see Karate on National Geographic Channel by Josette Normeandu.... you will truely impressed...........

                                Comment

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