The Essence of Karate

[Berserk001]

Many people think that kata doesn`t have a purpose in Karate, many people think in figthing without doing at least one kata correctly .This ignorance can cause you to loose a street fight that will make you a looser for many years between your friends .

The essence of karate is in its katas, cause when you practice them you train your mind and body to perform this moves more natural , faster and stronger , this includes the breathing technique of exaling at the same time than punching or kicking.

If you are in a fight and you try to remeber a certain technique you didn`t practice kata correctly and you probably loose the battle .If you think that you are ready for a street fight and when figthing you only use round kicks or round punches not straight ones then you are giving your opponet an advantage over you .Remeber to use techniques with open hands like shuto uchi or kicks in knees and groin .Its very important to hit in a spot in which only one strike is enough to end the battle like the adams apple or solar plexus .

Many figthers think that speed and being explosive is enough to win every fight but this is incorrect, techinque and not being nervous can bit them.

This is what I have learn in karate (give your opinion).

[Jmac]

From reading previous threads, my best estimate is that you will get a lot of arguement about katas on this forum.

My opinion is that they are useful, but I wouldn't say that you will lose a street fight because you don't use them. They are a form of training in that they teach you to punch or kick or block correctly. However, if you never hit a bag or a pad or another person, you will never know what is going on.

In my opinion katas alone will not do it. Just like punching a heavy bag alone will not do it.

[Uber_Tap]

You can win with free sparring alone, but not with kata or point sparring. I believe kata is a great training aid, but you'll win fights without it. If you fight someone with at least a little skill having only done kata, they will probably break their foot off in your ass.

As far as the throat strikes and things of the like, they are usefull but they also equal jail time. If you get in a fight with a drunk in a bar and you hit him in the throat and kill him, your ass is going to jail. If they have a knife or 2 guys are trying to jump you then yes you could make a legal argument for these types of techniques. With that said, if you've only done kata you have no idea if you can even land these techniques in a real fight and there is no safe way to train them in sparring, so they are most likely not even going to be something you can use effectively.

I agree that kata is usefull in the martial arts, but your post is very misleading to people new to the martial arts. I can't remember the gentelmen's name, but the worst beating I've ever seen someone take was in one of the first UFCs where a karate guy(who trained a style that was kata heavy) got the hell beat out of him by a guy that looked like he had only marginal skills. If ever you need to fight an imagenary opponent then kata is for you, but for someone with a little skill you need an art that offers real sparring. No disrespect, but I can't disagree more with your post.

[Jmac]

"If ever you need to fight an imagenary opponent then kata is for you, but for someone with a little skill you need an art that offers real sparring."

I really dislike that sort of thinking myself. Now it may be because I take Shotokan, but I believe that katas serve a purpose. The dojo I attend actually has a lot of sparring and SD techniques. If I am attacked on the street, I'm not going to try to do a kata on someone's ass. Instead I will use some of the moves that I have perfected in my katas and then practiced in sparring.

Back to the original point. Katas were not designed to choreograph step by step what one will do in a fight. If Beserk is silly enough to believe that, then it's his ass that gets kicked. If no practical training is done, he will be ill prepared for what lies ahead.

[playingmantis]

karate kata do

i am really poor at katas ....poor memory and cocentration i mean
i think katas are more the spiritual and mental aspect of karate
they sure help improving form and balance

but no substitute for free style sparring

my favourite kata ..the descending dragon

[Thai Bri]

Not this shit again.

1. Mike Tyson never did a Kata in his life. Do you think you'd beat him in a
streetfight?

2. Hitting empty air is mechanically VERY different to hitting a target. In Kata you teach your body to do it incorrectly.

3. Train "deadly strikes" against impact training aids. That is far better than thin air training.

4. The "stop start" rythm of Kasta is robotic. Again, you teach yourself to do it wrong. I especially like the way people leave their arms out when they punch....

5. The Bunkai are now so "secret" that people make them up as they go along. Hence blocks become so called strikes etc., depending on how much someone can kid themseleves.

I could go on and on. Don't me me wrong. I used to practice Kata. I believed all the hype too. But walking into a Thai Boxing Dojo showed me what a waste of time they are.

Many years ago people designed the Kata as a training method. But the worlkd has moved on. There are far better ways to train. It isn't just that they don't add anything to your training. They actually make you worse!

[sherwinc]

Not this shit again.

1. Mike Tyson never did a Kata in his life. Do you think you'd beat him in a
streetfight?

If Mike Tyson knows WingChun, he will be one of the best fighter ever existed.......

2. Hitting empty air is mechanically VERY different to hitting a target. In Kata you teach your body to do it incorrectly.

i dont hit air, i did hit wooden dummy and plum flower posts later......

[Jmac]

There are far too many variables in a fight, correct? Fighting is at its most basic, a relationship. It's not about what you do. It's about what you do in relation to the other guy. Therefore, practicing for combat effectiveness without practicing with/on another person is like trying to learn to ride a horse without using a horse. Kata may be a decent conditioning exercise, since it's a long isometric set, but for anything combative, you need live, unpredictable training. Timing, rhythm, distance, pace, and even intention are uniquely human. You can't get them in solo training.

I agree completely. As far as Thai Bri saying that katas cause you to do things incorrectly, I'm not sure I understand that. IMHO, they improve the form on my kicks, if nothing else.

Besides, does anyone believe that katas alone will prepare you to defend yourself efficiently? No one I know.

[Berserk001]

Not this shit again.

1. Mike Tyson never did a Kata in his life. Do you think you'd beat him in a
streetfight?

2. Hitting empty air is mechanically VERY different to hitting a target. In Kata you teach your body to do it incorrectly.

3. Train "deadly strikes" against impact training aids. That is far better than thin air training.

4. The "stop start" rythm of Kasta is robotic. Again, you teach yourself to do it wrong. I especially like the way people leave their arms out when they punch....

5. The Bunkai are now so "secret" that people make them up as they go along. Hence blocks become so called strikes etc., depending on how much someone can kid themseleves.

I could go on and on. Don't me me wrong. I used to practice Kata. I believed all the hype too. But walking into a Thai Boxing Dojo showed me what a waste of time they are.

Many years ago people designed the Kata as a training method. But the worlkd has moved on. There are far better ways to train. It isn't just that they don't add anything to your training. They actually make you worse!

1-.Mike tyson isn,t invincible of course he has a lot of physical strength but as every human if you hit him in the ribs, groin , open handed on the nose or front kick in the knees he will go down thats what makes a karateka to be better than other defense techniques to hit in the correct spot .And I have seen many figths in which one opponent or many have a big advantage, like size or number and only one guy that knows how to hit in the rigth spot kicks their asses.

2-.If you think like your number 2 quote then you are doing a kata incorrectly by not putting all your energy in every kata movement then you teach your body to do it incorrectly.

3-.I agree with this one.

4-.In this point your totally wrong if you think that kata have to be made in a robotic way the rythm in kata changes and differs in every movement of the kata at least in shito-ryu style karate .

5-.Bunkai is only a translation of the kata you can use the kata movements in different order depending of the situation of course some bunkai aren`t very useful in a real fight but if you know when to use the rigth movement at the rigth time then you are a good karateka or a good martial art practitioner.

I could go on and on but if you still think the same then Thai Boxing won`t make you a better I am not saying that Thai Boxing is a bad martial art I say that to be stong and fast isnt the only way to become a better figther you have to train your mind like in kata and doing the correct breathings .Remember fighters are the ones that win the fight not styles.

[EmptyneSs]

karate isnt about fighting. isnt it more about not fighting than anything else?

also u dont need to train like u are going to the ufc just to defend urself. very simple techniques can be enough to defend urself.

[Thai Bri]

Its always funny when people say things that may be true.....but are still irrelevant. Like this "also u dont need to train like u are going to the ufc just to defend urself. very simple techniques can be enough to defend urself." This is true. But irrelevant to a thread about Kata.

Berserk - go and find me any Karate-ka that has beaten any boxer. You have this theory, but that is all it is. There ARE some fantastic Karate fighters, but they are rare. And many of them do not count, as they got their effective skills by cross training in other arts - like Thai Boxing! And how does Kata teach you to "hit in the correct spot"? All it does is teach you to hit at certain angles that stay the same and have no regard for any change in size or position of an opponent.

jmac - you say they improve form on your kick? You find a Thai Boxing school and compare your kicks aginst theirs, on the bag. I guarantee yours is better against thin air though.......

Do Kata if you want to. It will make you better at........ Kata.

[IPON]

Many people think that kata doesn`t have a purpose in Karate, many people think in figthing without doing at least one kata correctly .This ignorance can cause you to loose a street fight that will make you a looser for many years between your friends.

No Offense, but you are way off base. Performing kata does not translate into being a competent or complete firghter. All techniques of a given style are not typically found in all kata. Your post implies that you are young and have never had a true fight....why would care what your friends think if you got your ass handed to you

I like kata and believe in its importence for training and tradition, but if some one thinks that practicng kata alone will directly enhance fighting ability they are mistaken. What will help in a street fight is mental toughness. Kata is a training tool no more no less

[CKD]

The people that created kata probaly created it so techniques would not be forgotten because some practicioner forgot a few. With the Mike Tyson argument, if he took wing chun he wouldn't be as good as a he is now. If he started taking sub fighting along with boxing he would be a better fighter. Can any of these karate guys get one of there masters to try to down Mike Tyson with there "hitting in the right spot techniques"? I am sure someone has hit Tyson in the throat in a streetfight before and got there butt kicked. Just because you hit the throat or groin doesn't mean the person is going to stop fighting. On the topic of traditional ma's, I know they can be pretty good fighting styles if trained right. But the chances of you finding the place it trained as it originally was are slim. Even if you go to the home country of the art you are unlikely to find it trained in an effecient manner. I have done some karate in Japan, it is not that much different except the training is a bit harder. One place I heard traditional styles were trained effectively was Russia and other former Soviet countries. A friend said he believes the reason that they are trained effectively in those countries is because the people in the former soviet seem to be more interested in self defense than tradition, its not marketed like in the U.S and because the martial arts were used mostly for the Soviet military.

[EmptyneSs]

Its always funny when people say things that may be true.....but are still irrelevant. Like this "also u dont need to train like u are going to the ufc just to defend urself. very simple techniques can be enough to defend urself." This is true. But irrelevant to a thread about Kata.

Berserk - go and find me any Karate-ka that has beaten any boxer. You have this theory, but that is all it is. There ARE some fantastic Karate fighters, but they are rare. And many of them do not count, as they got their effective skills by cross training in other arts - like Thai Boxing! And how does Kata teach you to "hit in the correct spot"? All it does is teach you to hit at certain angles that stay the same and have no regard for any change in size or position of an opponent.

jmac - you say they improve form on your kick? You find a Thai Boxing school and compare your kicks aginst theirs, on the bag. I guarantee yours is better against thin air though.......

Do Kata if you want to. It will make you better at........ Kata.

people were saying how kata isnt enough, and how u need all diff kinds of things to win in a fight. i just said that u dont really need to be the most well rounded fighter out there in order to defend urself in a fight. simple shit can be enough to help u out. what i said was relivent, but if u want to be negative and pick everything apart thats on u.

[Broadsword2004]

Hmmm, well to me, simple stuff isn't enough to help one in a fight, you take a hard hit to the stomach, thigh, or your face and your eyes water all up and you know nothing abut pain, and your simple stuff goes out the window. Cuz believe me, if you have never experienced some real pain while fighting, all your techniques can go out the window unless your fighting for you family or whatnot.

To me, fighting depends mainly on three things: good conditioning (so you can take blows, cuz your opponent will most likely hit you back unless you overwhelm them, and if there are multiples and they both strike simulataneously, you may get hit hard in the face or something), good skills (good skills so you can kick the crap out of the opponents any way you please, whether it be your drunken brother-in-law, or an armed robber), and aggressiveness.

As for kata, I think kata is worthless and is only good for helping to preserve certain techniques. I mean, so that say you could train to fight very differently, but practice kata so as to say to people, "But this is how they did stuff way back when...." etc....as for kata improving speed, coordination, etc.....WHO THE HECK EVER MADE UP THAT ONE!?! Kata does nothing for those things. If you want to improve speed, coordination, balance, etc....PRACTICE GYMNASTICS. Ala dips, pushups, pullups, rope-climb, handstands, flips, splits, etc.....remember gymnastics evolved off of the training methods knights used to use for developing speed, coordination, etc....that is where the pommel horse came from even, and the vault exercise. In certain Italian and German training manuals from the 15 and 1600s, it is documented that knights even turned backflips with their armour on (though without the helmet). And then that stuff evolved into the modern sport. But gymnastics training is what will give you real coordination and balance, etc.....you can do traditional karate katas for years and never develop that kinda stuff the way gymnastics will give it to you. Gymnastics is no sport for whussies, it is real fitness training. You can see 300 pound "high dans" in karate doing katas, but not gymnastics in that shape!

Kata is only good for artistic stuff or forms, and in some Chinese arts, breathing (some Chinese martial arts have katas or forms that require one to do prerequisite stuff because the higher forms require such intense hard breathing). But aside from the breathing, forms are only good for artistic-ness and athletics. Acrobatic Chinese martial art forms can be very good in that they can help one with speed, coordination, etc....cuz they are basically gymnastics. But reg. kata of karate is the most worthless stuff I have ever seen. It will not teach one to fight, nor will it give you the speed, coordination, strength, power, etc....that real gymnastics will give.

Now I am always one to stick up for karate in temrs of fighting ability. Granted, Thai boxing does have more effective kicks I believe, but karate is still a very good art. But not because of kata.

John Bluming, one of the highest ranking dans of karate and judo and a student of Mas Oyama, even said that "the notion that one can learn to fight from kata is nonsense, absolute nonsense. As to why they keep doing so much kata in the dojos? Because the money keeps rolling in......that's all." And he is one of the real karate fighters of history, who actually fought with the art and was very good.