If someone trains in bujinkan ninjutsu for 15 years how good shold he be?

[Andrew WA]

Hey thats cool thanks. But I live in Louisville and going to those schools would be to expensive for gas. Anyway I hope me and this kid can hang out and he can show me his stuff.

[Broadsword2004]

Ever trained with one? It'll sure be a sobering experience when you do

Facts are facts; any art that says you don't need physical strength to do it, is walking on the B.S. side. I believe in ninjutsu, but whatever ninjutsu that woman was studying I think is one of the B.S. ones.

I did read a book by Stephen K. Hayes on ninjutsu, and from what he wrote, the kind he was studying sounds pretty authentic.

It was called: "The Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art." It was actually my first introduction to martial arts and ninjutsu.

It is just there are so many "ninjutsu" schools out there these days, it is hard to tell the B.S. from the real stuff sometimes. I mean, it is pretty easy to tell if an art is B.S. or not in terms of effectiveness, but you might be learning an effective art and told it is ninjutsu when in fact it is not.

Of course ninjutsu of some type was real; I doubt the ninja could have been who they were without such an effective art.

But in that book, Hayes mentions the conditioning the ninja went through, everything from leaping across rooftops to climbing trees, to stretching, acrobatics, all sorts of empty-handed and weapons training, the ability to jump very high, the ability to run for loooooong distances, breath control, etc....you need physical strength for all that, and also so you can take blows when hit.

The problem is, the woman who said that was supposedly at one of the Bujinkan Ninjutsu/Taijutsu things of Massaki Hatsumi (I think that's how it is spelled). But Hayes was ALSO taught by Hatsumi. Which is what makes me suspicious.

I should have worded my opinion better, but yeah, I am guessing then that whatever "ninjutsu" that woman was doing is bullshido in its finest.

[medic06]

Now you're just being retarded

That's his natural state. At least he acknowledges his place in the order of the universe.

[julian01]

Broadsword2004 with greatest respect we all are a bit ignorant on some things but its so clear from anything you have posted, that you know so little about ninjutsu to form any opinion thats valid

[koto_ryu]

Facts are facts; any art that says you don't need physical strength to do it, is walking on the B.S. side. I believe in ninjutsu, but whatever ninjutsu that woman was studying I think is one of the B.S. ones.

There's many other arts that say that: aikido, chin na, aikijutsu, etc. Ninjutsu is just like any art with small-joint manipulations: you don't need a heckuva lot of strength to use it effectively. Sure, a guy can have arms the size of those huge tenderloins at the butcher shop, but all that weight training won't toughen up his fingers, wrist, or elbows. It takes very little pressure to break a finger, and all joints can only go so far in so many directions before they break. The most strength you may use is actually striking the target, but as far as everything else you're off-balancing them and manipulating parts of their body that you can easily control.

But in that book, Hayes mentions the conditioning the ninja went through, everything from leaping across rooftops to climbing trees, to stretching, acrobatics, all sorts of empty-handed and weapons training, the ability to jump very high, the ability to run for loooooong distances, breath control, etc....you need physical strength for all that, and also so you can take blows when hit.

Yes you need some kind of strength for those, but she was talking about the techniques not all of the physical aspects like shoten no jutsu (running up flat surfaces) or the like.

The problem is, the woman who said that was supposedly at one of the Bujinkan Ninjutsu/Taijutsu things of Massaki Hatsumi (I think that's how it is spelled). But Hayes was ALSO taught by Hatsumi. Which is what makes me suspicious.

If you ever get the chance, I'd try to at least check out a class before making any more opinions. Here's a good example for you: my buddy's an indy wrestler, about 6'2 and 260, virtually all muscle. He's a pretty tough dude who's pretty damn strong but when you see him apply his techniques he has an almost bored look on his face as he almost never needs to use any kind of muscle at all. One of my senseis is like that too, he's a really really big guy but his flow and technique are so well-trained he never uses his muscle at all, it's more like he's dancing with you and there's very little you can do about it. My biggest pet peeve is people who will bash an art right from the outset without doing extensive research into it to try to see if it actually is worthwhile or not.

[Andrew WA]

All I know is that in a real fight you are not with a partner who will follow through with your moves and fall with your moves. People resist. So a lot of techniques could work in theory but you HAVE to be strong to fight someone who is resisting. You cant just expect himto fall over and roll as you twist his wrist. You have to have speed which takes physical ability as well. A lot of people practice the choreographed defense moves which is good to do but they need to actually try fighting someone with them or sparring.


Also why is it that in this one ninjutsu video there is an extremely fat guy with a black belt on and he is doing some sword defense and rolling. He looks so silly like big fat ball. Its funny.

[koto_ryu]

All I know is that in a real fight you are not with a partner who will follow through with your moves and fall with your moves. People resist. So a lot of techniques could work in theory but you HAVE to be strong to fight someone who is resisting. You cant just expect himto fall over and roll as you twist his wrist. You have to have speed which takes physical ability as well. A lot of people practice the choreographed defense moves which is good to do but they need to actually try fighting someone with them or sparring.

As I said before, joint manipulation takes a lot less power than one might expect. I'm not a huge guy (5'9", around 180ish) but I can still take down my indy wrestler friend even though he may be giving a lot of resistance. It's all in the movement of the body and hips that really help you manipulate your opponent. That's why a lot of women actually do fairly well in grappling arts, as they don't rely as heavily as men on their upper body strength and thus learn the techniques a lot more quickly and effectively, whereas men take longer as they need to get over that way of thinking.

Shidoshi Ballanon (think I spelled that right), a personal student of Shihan van Donk, started off using a lot of upper body strength for his techniques until Shihan made him start carrying around an 50lb weight (cannot remember what exactly it was, I think like a Buddha statue or something) whenever they weren't doing techniques so eventually his arms would be so worn out he would have to rely on natural body movement to perform the techniques effectively. I often do my kettlebell workouts before class so my arms are good and tired so I won't feel the need to throw in a lot of muscle for my techniques either as once I heard that story I figured it was worth a try and it has helped tremendously.

Sit in at a chin na, jujitsu, or other type of grappling class that has small joint manipulation and you will see it does not take a lot of effort. There are many things on your body that can easily be broken with less than 10 pounds of pressure, so you don't have to be The Incredible Hulk to be combat effective, especially when dealing with multiple opponents. The more muscle you use on one, the more tired and less combat ready you will be for the next.

Also why is it that in this one ninjutsu video there is an extremely fat guy with a black belt on and he is doing some sword defense and rolling. He looks so silly like big fat ball. Its funny.

Which video in particular?

[koto_ryu]

And then once you get good at that, there's always jobs open for you

[Hikage]

Ninjitsu against resisting defenders...

Ya'll are missing several crucial elements here...

None of the joint locks and take downs will work if you lack the off-balancing aspect of the technique. Amateurs try to over-emphasize this movement by making a long drop back and jerking the opponent with them. This is what most of you see when ninjitsu people fail to make their techniques work against someone who is resisting.

When you first start out in ninjitsu, most of what you learn is taught through long drawn-out stances and deliberate movements. In reality, ninijtsu is not meant to be done in this fashion. We need to remember, when Hatsumi steps back, his legs are much shorter than ours. We, as people of European stature, do not need to use as wide a stance as he does. Too many people here, even prominant instructors, just blindly mimic him.

Instead, use a natural stance, as you would be walking. How did you walk into the room? Did you take the huge, spider like stances or did you just meander in like a normal person? That is how the off-balancing works. Furthermore, the opponent does not need to go very far to be off-balance. The key is to ever so subtly move them to the point right before they would resist you. Then apply your lock. This grabbing thing just simply does not work.

FURTHEREMORE, (and this is the part that many lack) a ninjitsu stylist in America needs to learn "pops." These well-placed, yet short punches/strikes soften an opponent's limbs for brief periods of time, making manipulation easier. I am not referring to the 1 - 2 - 3 combinations that you are taught in ichimonji, jumonji, etc. Rather, I'm referring to 3, 4, 5 strikes, saturating and then dissecting parts of the opponent's body. Emphasis for these strikes needs to be on short movements, accuracy, and correct body movement.

Botton line: Without off-balancing and "pops" nothing will work.

-Hikage

[koto_ryu]

Ya'll are missing several crucial elements here...

Botton line: Without off-balancing and "pops" nothing will work.

-Hikage

Aww you're giving away all our secrets I did forget to add those, I was so caught up in defending joint manipulations as that and kyushojutsu are my faves

[Broadsword2004]

It is not a matter of knowing about ninjutsu; it is a FIGHTING ART. ANY fighting art that claims one doesn't need good conditioning is walking on the B.S. side. It doesn't matter how much technique you have, if you aren't conditioned and get punched or kicked hard, you're down.

And strength and muscle size are two different things. How big a person is doesn't necessarily determine how strong they are. You can be very strong and not be super large (i.e. you don't need "sausage arms" to have the kind of physical strength I am referring to). By strength, I mean strength in all aspects of the body, everything from legs to fingers to the neck.

And that is B.S. about not needing strength for wrist techniques, because you're going to need pretty much perfect technique to make them work otherwise, and chances are your opponent will not be in the position to allow you to work them right if their adrenaline is pumping and they are seriously resisting you.

These guys who seem "bored" while doing their joint techniques have a great deal of wrist, finger, and forearm strength already developed, so since their technique is also very good, they perform them like nothing. To a person who is your average jane or joe, who thus lacks such wrist and forearm strength, doing those same technques can be much more difficult if the opponent is bigger and stronger then they are, and is resisting.

One of my sensei's used to say in regards to such technqiues, "Using the strength of a 90 year-old man." The reality is more like the strength of a 90 year-old man who has been training hard for 70 of those 90 years. There is a big difference when a strong person applies joint locks and when a weak person does them, because the stronger person has so much more natural strength, they don't even notice it.

And if there are multiples, forget it. No technique will help you if you don't have the strength and speed to execute it. Any art that claims to its practitioners that they do not need physical strength for the art is baloney.

Now, granted, the techniques THEMSELVES may require very little strength, but that doesn't mean you neglect strength and conditioning training from your training regimen, though that is how most people seem to interpret it (i.e. that woman; she should still incorporate strength and conditioning training into her training regimen).

As for the grappling, that requires a good deal of endurance and strength as well; it is just that in order to master the techniques themselves, and to learn to apply the principles of leverage properly and all that, it is good to not concentrate on using physical strength when grappling; but physical strength is still needed.

That is my main point. Sure, grappling and joint manipulation may not require physical strength too much in themselves, but the act of fighting in order to use those techniques does require physical strength.

Another thing to also remember is an attacker who is drunk, with adrenaline flowing, and/or possibly on drugs, may not even feel the pain you give them even if you do the technique perfectly. They will still keep coming at you, and hit you hard and if you aren't conditioned for it, you're gonna get the crap kicked out of you.

Sure, then, you can still take them down and literally break their leg so they cannot stand, but that in itself requires physical strength, to wrestle them down and then start grappling and maintain control of the situation.

[Broadsword2004]

Oh a koto_ryu, it doesn't take one common sense to know if something is B.S.ing in terms of martial arts if they say it requires no physical strength in general.

However, as I said in my above post, I think that ninjutsu does emphasize physical conditioning and strength greatly (the proper kind of strength), just the joint techniques themselves are not supposed to rely on physical strength. As I said, ninja were trained to do very physical things. That is purely obvious.

But my pet peeve is people seem to misunderstand this and interpret it as meaning, "If these techniques in this art are not supposed to require physical strength to do them, then that means I don't have to train in strength and conditioning at all!"

I also think that the people who designed these techniques designed them with the mindset that, even though the techniques themselves are supposed to rely on technique, and not so much strength, the people doing these techniques are still supposed to be pretty strong and well conditioned.

[Hikage]

Broadsword,

Agreed......................Sort of.

-Hikage

[koto_ryu]

It is not a matter of knowing about ninjutsu; it is a FIGHTING ART. ANY fighting art that claims one doesn't need good conditioning is walking on the B.S. side. It doesn't matter how much technique you have, if you aren't conditioned and get punched or kicked hard, you're down.

Who said we never did that? As I have stressed many times, we often do reality stress training to further enhance our combat effectiveness. Also, I never said we never relied on conditioning, we just don't prefer using excessive muscle to apply techniques.

And strength and muscle size are two different things. How big a person is doesn't necessarily determine how strong they are. You can be very strong and not be super large (i.e. you don't need "sausage arms" to have the kind of physical strength I am referring to). By strength, I mean strength in all aspects of the body, everything from legs to fingers to the neck.

No argument there, I myself do a lot of the old-time strongman exercises. I concentrate a lot on gripwork (i.e. Captains of Crush, pinch grip, and the like), kettlebells, and basic compound exercises. I'm pretty wiry but I'm one of the stronger ones in my dojo just because of all of that supplemental training.

And that is B.S. about not needing strength for wrist techniques, because you're going to need pretty much perfect technique to make them work otherwise, and chances are your opponent will not be in the position to allow you to work them right if their adrenaline is pumping and they are seriously resisting you.

Well then if we're all in the dark, why don't you share some of your grappling knowledge with us?

As for wrists, let's take a look at the basic anatomy of a wrist. The bone connections at a wrist joint are synovial, which means no tissue exists between the articulating surfaces of the bones and is free moving. The wrist is actually on two axes, allowing it to move sort of like a wheel and axle. The ligaments inside your body stabilize the joints and limit their range of motion. When performing a manipulation on a wrist joint, the technique is to move the joint against its natural range of motion, first damaging the ligaments. Once you move it to its limits and then past that point, that is when the whole joint gets injured. However, you cannot just do one axis, you need to do both. So merely bending it forward is going to make it hurt, but bending it forward and then twisting to the outside is going to make it hurt a lot more.

What's all that gibberish mean? It means that unless the guy you're tangling with has wrists the size of a 40oz it takes very little to move a wrist into a painful position. We can't claim to never use muscle, as that in and of itself is truly impossible, but we definitely want to use the minimum necessary.

These guys who seem "bored" while doing their joint techniques have a great deal of wrist, finger, and forearm strength already developed, so since their technique is also very good, they perform them like nothing. To a person who is your average jane or joe, who thus lacks such wrist and forearm strength, doing those same technques can be much more difficult if the opponent is bigger and stronger then they are, and is resisting.

Actually his wrists are pretty bad, you can just begin to do an ura gyakku (inside wrist reversal) to him when he's already squealing in pain. I forget exactly how he injured them, I think he broke both of them during an indy match and they never healed properly, but needless to say he had to learn how to use technique after that.

Now, granted, the techniques THEMSELVES may require very little strength, but that doesn't mean you neglect strength and conditioning training from your training regimen, though that is how most people seem to interpret it (i.e. that woman; she should still incorporate strength and conditioning training into her training regimen).

As for the grappling, that requires a good deal of endurance and strength as well; it is just that in order to master the techniques themselves, and to learn to apply the principles of leverage properly and all that, it is good to not concentrate on using physical strength when grappling; but physical strength is still needed.

No argument there either, I train at least two hours a day six days a week in a variety of different exercises, from sprints to kettlebells to climbing to bagwork to reality stress training. Ninjutsu has junan taiso which, at the introductory levels, starts off as merely stretching but soon expands into a variety of different conditioning and strengthening exercises (nothing too outstanding, just pull-ups, push-ups, sit-ups, and the like).

Another thing to also remember is an attacker who is drunk, with adrenaline flowing, and/or possibly on drugs, may not even feel the pain you give them even if you do the technique perfectly. They will still keep coming at you, and hit you hard and if you aren't conditioned for it, you're gonna get the crap kicked out of you.

That's why much of our kihon happo emphasizes takedowns. We don't just stand there bending back their pinky finger while yelling KIAI! You basically let them think they're just about to hit you, shift angles, strike, off-balance them, and take them down. You can remain standing if you wish or follow as need be, depending on the threat of the situation.

If they're drunk and you take them down, they're more likely to stay down than the average. Even if they keep getting back up, you can take advantage of their naturally imbalanced state to keep tossing them away from you until you make your escape. I did something similar along Gate 2 Street at Okinawa: drunk guy came charging at me, I merely shifted out of the way, he tripped over my leg, and before he was off the ground my friend and I were in the taxi cab telling the honcho to get us home. Nothing fancy, no flying tornado kicks or the like, just a simple "Whoops, watch yourself" then I'm gone.

As for them being high, I'd rather take them down and make my escape rather than keep striking them hard over and over until they stay down. By that time, they'll be damn near death and after my time over in Iraq, I'm far less prone to want to take a human life than I ever was. I'd rather take him to the ground, give him a few sharp kicks to teach him a lesson, and dart rather than keep smashing the guy into the ground or pounding on his head like a conga drum.

[koto_ryu]

Oh a koto_ryu, it doesn't take one common sense to know if something is B.S.ing in terms of martial arts if they say it requires no physical strength in general.......with the mindset that, even though the techniques themselves are supposed to rely on technique, and not so much strength, the people doing these techniques are still supposed to be pretty strong and well conditioned.

As I mentioned before, I agree with all of this. Strength and conditioning are a vital part of the martial arts, they just don't need to take the throne over proper technique and application.