Can Karate be effective?

[Cobra_nVidia]

I'm wondering what people think.

Here's some of the things I've been thinking about lately

1. Most blocks have a real application, just not the kind most dojo's teach. I find at the moment, the age-uke and gedan barai are effective for head attacks, while the uchi-uke and that elbow-block-backfist combination from Heian 3 work good against middle attacks. Which one you use depends on the side the opponent attacks from. All present a solution to the common problem of most karate styles - the blocks are too slow and don't give you any advantage over your assailent.

2. Older Okinawan Karate is vastly different from Japanese JKA style sport. In Okinawan Karate there is no KIME. There is no stop at the point of contact. The hips, arm, and wrist snap like a whip. KIME is a sport term that is completely useless in self-defence, something that teaches you how to stop a blow is not effective against stopping an opponent.

3. I have suffered far worse head injuries from accidents than assailents. I think I understand why Funakoshi wasn't really interested in Karate-Jutsu

[IOM Combat]

Hi Cobra,
IMO kararate can be made to be effective in self-defence, BUT to make it so you have to pretty much ignore 95% of what is taught. Bunkai are a good start to making it better, but you have to add far more principles than are generally trained to make it work. The same applies for any art which has majorly become a combination of sport and kata. It tends to then come to the stage where you have to start adapting techniques etc to a much higher level than most instructors/styles approve of.
Hope that makes sense.

Dan

[Broadsword2004]

Karate works fine if you incorporate in some boxing and have the kicks down very good. Otherwise, a lot of the bunkai are actually for use later on with weapons (for example a lot of the blocks you actually do with kobudo weapons, but not empty-handed necessarily). It depends.

[bearclaws]

I really don't like Karate very much but with much effort I guess it really could be effective but than again it is something that you learn when your in like the 5th grade. Overall any Martial art can be effective as long as you train hard and take the art serisouly.

[Broadsword2004]

The 5th grade? Karate is for adults; that is commercialism that made it for kids.

[Cobra_nVidia]

Regarding adding elements to Karate - in good Karate, you do not need to ADD to it. In fact, you need to subtract from it, and only utilize those techniques which you seem to favour.

The greatest example of this is people who would say combine Karate with grappling. In the context their using it in, it's ok, but we have to make something clear - Karate involves grappling. Karate involves A LOT of grappling. Karate comes from Okinawa, in which grappling competitions were held. Shorin-Ryu teaches a lot of grappling. Karate strikes look the way they do because they were to be preformed in close quarters, with your hikite grabbing the opponent. It's all the knowledge of the instructor. If not, sure, take BJJ to add to it.

Another thing I've noticed is that most Karate is taught as go-no-sen, which means to take the initiative later, or more frequently, block then punch. There are some major problems with this, which is why Karate students taught this method end up slugging it out in Kumite instead of applying blocks.

The prober technique is to either block with your guard (like a boxer) or BLOCK AND STRIKE with the same technique, or, I am discovering, striking with the blocking hand. Most Karate talks about how scientific their teachings are (they aren't actually) but only focus on generating force and nothing about fighting. A block-reverse punch combination is useless in a fight because the opponent will simply punch again. You must turn the fight to your advantage!

It's true some of the bunkai of the older Kata are for weapon use. In fact, the Kusanku was performed with Okinawan hairpins according to Hohan Sokon (1880's - 1980's)

People also don't understand Kata. They understand that it is stylized like Gong Fu, but don't understand how. It's not the embusen, or really the Kiai's. It's the "techniques"

A gedan barai is utilized in a manner that makes it appear different than in the Kata, not the same. In my experience, it's most effective use is taking down an opponent striking a punch to the head using the opposite hand (parry their left hand with your right hand). Another defense against a head attack is the age-uke combination of block and arm break. Which one you use defends on where the arms are in relation to one another (i.e. am I parrying with my lead hand or my reverse hand)

Another thing that it is interesting, is the number of Karate-Jutsu styles (Motobu-Ryu and Kassaki-Kai) that teach leading hand punches over reverse punches (hooks, crosses, uppercuts)

True fighting Karate will teach you pressure point strikes, and emphasize accuracy over just about anything else. A lot of times, a technique will feel more powerful against a Makiwara than a focus pad because the focus pad is set up in a different position than the makiwara. You didn't really learn how to punch, you learned to punch at only the exact angle to make contact with the Makiwara. You should be able to quickly punch a moving focus pad.

[B.M.S]

Well I guess it really could be effective but I would only train under the actual art from Gichin Funakoshi or from Shito Ryu not the everyday Karate class for people that think "Oh yay now I can go kick someones ass" but thats just my opinion.

[Thai Bri]

Who the fluck is Shito Ryu?

I think you'll find that is the name of a style.

Karate is in a mess. Has been ever since it became "popular". There are powerful Karate-Ka out there. But they are few and far between.

[Cobra_nVidia]

Well I guess it really could be effective but I would only train under the actual art from Gichin Funakoshi or from Shito Ryu not the everyday Karate class for people that think "Oh yay now I can go kick someones ass" but thats just my opinion.

I disagree to some degree.

In my opinion, you must go to Okinawa to learn true Karate. Many of the "oyo" of the Kata were not taught by Funakoshi, and many of his students disagree with matters of technique (I side with the Shotokai, personally)

As well, the Okinawan Karate teachers (the good ones) will teach you stuff that wasn't taught in the Kata, because they had no reason to be hidden and/or could not transmitted in this fashion, i.e. grappling, which Okinawans like very much (Shido-Kan Shorin-Ryu, though I can't speak for it's effectiveness, does an excessive amount of grappling)

I'm not THAT interested in self-defence, but if I was, I would use Muay Thai to complement Karate training. Sounds silly, but here's why
1. Muay Thai sounds like a food
2. Karate teaches you pressure point striking and such, but never against a real opponent. Something like sport Muay Thai will get you in the ring, and develop your confidance in dealing with attackers. It's all well and good that some Karate techniques are extremely deadly, but it's hard for someone really nervous to apply them, or even know the true base power of their blows. I think if you sparred hard in Muay Thai you'd probably feel more relaxed, as you could handle yourself with blows you done for "real" anyway

[robertlee]

Kata teaches you the differnt tools. Peoplle look at it wrong. In a kata. you are in a step program of learning. Each defend and counter move should be looked at openly. To finds its use for you. Bunki is the 2 man form of a kata. Showing the different attacks counters and defence. kisokumite prearrnged spar. drills different defences moves. ALL must be broke down to learn. after black belt more advanced forms of training come to light. A person adapts to there needs. Any art can only offer up its tools of aproach. The person breaks down theres and goes from there. Blocks are also strikes many times. There is and will allways be some very good karate people out there. They opened up the door of there understanding.chamberd punches modified to guard And strike from there work well. Chamberd from block counter can work Karate jutsu trained more for defence while kartate do trains more for a way. Because the world changed. GUNS came along. But today the old ways would still be a need for sport and street defence. Alot of people start and stop. Most traditional arts are understood better after black belt. And that takes 3 to 5 years training first. Short cuts are out there. A person will not ever use most of any arts tools Sometimes less is better depends what you want.

[sirmattu]

I agree fully with cobra, nicely said.

[Broadsword2004]

Yeah, that is true about what Cobra said about the grappling. Somewhere along the line though, people disassociated karate with grappling.

And yeah, nicely said Cobra.

[B.M.S]

Yes Corba Muay Thai freaking rocks but anyway I really don't like karate but if I got a chance to learn from a actual master of the art sure why not but Muay Thai in my mind is number 1.

[koto_ryu]

Yes Corba Muay Thai freaking rocks but anyway I really don't like karate but if I got a chance to learn from a actual master of the art sure why not but Muay Thai in my mind is number 1.

Who's teaching you MT?

[Tom Yum]

I disagree to some degree.

I'm not THAT interested in self-defence, but if I was, I would use Muay Thai to complement Karate training. Sounds silly, but here's why
1. Muay Thai sounds like a food
2. Karate teaches you pressure point striking and such, but never against a real opponent. Something like sport Muay Thai will get you in the ring, and develop your confidance in dealing with attackers. It's all well and good that some Karate techniques are extremely deadly, but it's hard for someone really nervous to apply them, or even know the true base power of their blows. I think if you sparred hard in Muay Thai you'd probably feel more relaxed, as you could handle yourself with blows you done for "real" anyway

Hey Cobra, you've nailed this one.

I think karate itself can be good on its own for fight development, but it has to be full-contact karate like the seidokan or kyokushin systems.

Yes, there are jewels in traditional karate too but are best explaine in your post.



PS - Are you a fan of the string-theory unification of the 4 fundamental forces? This is beyond me - would like to hear from someone with more training. Thks