Can Karate be effective?

[HtTKar]

Another punch to add to your arsenal that is not taught in traditional karate is the cossack punch. Extend your arm out vertically with your thumb facing the floor. Your fingers will be pointing towards the outside of your body. I like this punch because it adds a little distance. It's looping nature causes it to loop over peoples guards and then back down for a head shot. Also it raises your shoulder up to naturally guard the side of your head and chin. And beleive it or not, you can hit really hard with this hit without much effort. The snapping action of the punch does most of the work for you. Most people are not used to having this punch thrown at them, at first it looks just like a jab, then it changes in midair. Mix this up with regular jabs, and you'll keep em busy until they get used to it.

[Cobra_nVidia]

Is a powerline punch a GOOD type of centerline punch?

All I'm saying is to punch with a vertical fist. If there exists a more powerful punch than the one I am using, I will find it eventually. I would suggest that perhaps the okinawans (and possibly the chinese, indians, greeks, cave men) learned of this concept of vertical and powerline punching. I mean, I don't think ANY true Karate punch when it was taught in Sakugawa or Matsumura's time would have been considered completely effective if it used the horizontal punch. For some punches, sure, it is more natural, but these punches often require you to close in on your opponent. In my opinion, unless there is a known (and large) skill level difference between your opponent and yourself, the whole idea of striking is to attack your opponent at long range. If you can get close enough to punch an uppercut, you will enter grappling range. Unless you are so skilled beyond your opponent that you can knock out your opponent or even really stun them with one punch, the grappler will win, because they will grap you and you can't attack anymore.
The whole point of Karate punching, I am quite sure you would never punch a straight with a horizontal fist. It was Itosu that developed this idea. Although a great instructor, he was not well liked by Matsumura, because he wasn't physically talented for skilled fighting. He was too slow (at least when he was taught by matsumura). So he went somewhere else. It was Ankoh Azato that trained personally under matsumura, whom Funakoshi only had brief instruction with. The twisting motion in a japanese or Itosu-style punch only serves to weaken the punch. Not only because it is wasted movement (of course, I'm only saying it's useless in the context it's taught, I'm sure it has some use somewhere) but because it causes the shoulder and elbow to raise, and weakens the fist for the impact, so you must tighten up to take the punch. By tightening, you do take the impact better, but that's like changing the speed of your spring because you don't know how to run properly. Tightening up a punch never generates power, it just feels more powerful in air. The true way to improve your punch is with a makiwara for generating power. A heavy bag for some accuracy and lots of wrist strengthening (a rounded bag will test the strength of your wrist if you are even slightly inaccurate and punch outside the staight line between you and the surface) For accuracy, focus pads with small circles are really good.

[robertlee]

Punching is in the delivery. Both horizonal and vertical are useful. And both can have good power. The persons doing either. Make that happen.

[Cobra_nVidia]

I can't argue with that.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Everything has a use. Sure. What is the use?

[robertlee]

If you train vertical more you will perhaps use it more. Same on horizonal. Both get effective with use. Neither is the whole . Its prefurance. Train both you use either.

[Cobra_nVidia]

A horizontal fist probably has a use, but saying they can be used for the exact same technique, is pretty dumb. Don't use a horizontal punch for a centerline strike. There IS NO power.

[robertlee]

Lets drop the dumb. And open our thoughts. Horizonal fist is not just karate. And when landed solar plex ,liver. midsection. straightRight to chin nose ect. It does have some power. Center line is just a point of weakness in the body. When a real fight or a full contact fight happens People get hit. tell them that it was just a horizonal punch so it could not of hurt. Power comes from training and doing. Then in contact. distance timing and being able to connect the punch . Different people punch different ways. And say a side fighting stance. may work for points. But it limits real contact. And makes it easyer to be taken to the ground. But it protects the center. IF you are not really hitting.

[Cobra_nVidia]

Opening your mind, and accepting a vertical fist can be switched for a horizontal fist for the same target, is not that same thing. That's NOT USING your mind. Train in one and train in the other. Test it out. I have yet to encounter anyone who actually finds the horizontal fist more useful. I can do things with a vertical punch that are almost astonishing when I compare it to the horizontal fist I used to use. Incidently, people are people, and I have yet to identify a single person who can hit harder with a horizontal fist. A horizontal fist is only "natural" if you shoot from your shoulder. Most people just bindly accept it to work.

Why, if the horizontal fist is so useful, did boxers always fight with a vertical fist? It's because, despite your "open mind", the alignment is still wrong. You can't change that. You're only punching horizontally because Itosu developed it and like teaching it to kids. You CANNOT generate the proper power because the alignment is wrong.

[robertlee]

I use both. And both work. You said why did boxing used to only use vertical. Why does boxing use more horizonal now. What you can do is that what some one else does is different to. Im just saying both can work. Im not doing a horizonal fist because what some one changed. I do it a long with a vertical or diagonal. If I choose to. But like I said tell the person being hit that it does not hurt because it horizonal. And where are you finding more people doing just vertical verses horizonal. I see both being used. Yes one can develop power perhaps more from a vertical. But its easyer to learn. and requires less training. But look at an open palm it has power to. And safer . If it works do it. Were not talking Just karate. Have you fought a boxer. But I will end my comments.

[Cobra_nVidia]

Bare-knuckle boxing does not use a horizontal fist. Glove Boxers use a shoulder-thrown horizontal fist. It makes no difference to them that the fist is not correct, because they are not taught to throw it bare.

You are doing a horizontal fist because of what someone did. No bare knuckle fighter (in other words, trained in english boxing, or Karate punching) would tell you to punch with ONLY 2 knuckles with a twisted hand. You would never, ever, be taught to twist your wrist so that you bend your forearm bones. It's just stupid. You can't say "oh, everybody is different" because that just shows you no nothing more about anatomy than actually hitting someone.

I don't tell the person holding the pads or puching them, "the vertical is more powerful", I show them. Then they try, then they do. I have never had anyone tell me they enjoyed the horizontal strike more.

English Boxing does not use a horizontal fist, neither did Greek boxing. It's history. The punch of sui-de does not punch horizontally. Someone you come up in air isn't always the best.

[robertlee]

Todays world not the past. And pads do not hit back. the just help you train and build. Test your self on a resistive partener. That hits back. If then you can say horizonal fist does not have power you felt the fist.

[Cobra_nVidia]

Todays world not the past. And pads do not hit back. the just help you train and build. Test your self on a resistive partener. That hits back. If then you can say horizonal fist does not have power you felt the fist.

OMFG.

Stop posting and spewing buzz words and cliche's you do not understand. Something that does more damage to a pad will do more damage to a human being. Using a horizontal fist is slower, less natural, and more dangerous than using a vertical fist. For almost 2000 years, horizontal fists were relegated minor roles in combat. But now, people train the pads using gloves or wrapped hands, and all the sudden, they "realize" both work. That's just stupid. Had a horizontal fist been so effective, it would have easily led to it's usage in Gong Fu, Karate, and English Boxing. But no, these all used straight punches and vertical fists. There is NO argument. Stop posting garbage you read off a website.

[crazyjoe380]

Can someone explan how this would work?



Or this.. lol


Someone explain that to me please. I'm dying to hear this.. (read this)

[robertlee]

What is the hand postion on a straight punch. HORIZONAL fist. seikan fist . And yes pads get trained. BUt they are not resistive partners. They are training tools to lead to use. What You do not realize. I do not take off internet forums. I am not a child. Lets see Im 52 years old. You say you study Okinawian Karate. What style. So have I Go Ju Ryu. began 1973. 5 th dan. Just one of the arts I have trained thru the past 30 some odd years. I no longer use Its katas. or such just a few of the tools I need. The difference is I wont just say vertical is best And . You donot understand A straight punch How about a reverse punch. A boxers right cross. Overhand lead or rear hook. Which can be vertical or horizonal JKD from vertical to slightly diagonal. Tell Ali. Tell tyson. That there punchs are nothing because they are not vertical. What book Are you reading from. May I suggest. you visit a fewdifferent schools. And perhaps a boxing gym. See that although verical is more alined with the body. There are other punches that hold well in use.

[Cobra_nVidia]

What is the hand postion on a straight punch.

A straight punch involves a vertical fist. It's just a staple. Itosu invented the twisting motion of the modern styles.

And yes pads get trained. BUt they are not resistive partners. They are training tools to lead to use.

Really? Pads are not resistive partners? God, I never thought of it that way.
Look, it's quite simple. The basic Shuri-Te fist of Matsumura Orthodox, etc, is a vertical fist. This was the fist they used. It's the fist that causes more damage to a pad. Is it slower than the horizontal fist? No, not even close. In fact, most people cannot punch nearly fast enough with their horizontal punches (of course, I'm talking about a straight Karate punch, not a boxing punch)

What You do not realize. I do not take off internet forums. I am not a child. Lets see Im 52 years old.

And it's not too late to learn to write with SOME application of grammar

You say you study Okinawian Karate. What style. So have I Go Ju Ryu. began 1973. 5 th dan. Just one of the arts I have trained thru the past 30 some odd years.

My official style is derived from Dr. Tsuoyoshi Chitose, a grandson of Matsumura Sokon. There ya go.

A straight punch How about a reverse punch.

A reverse punch is a straight punch. Way to show you're 30 years of experience.

A boxers right cross. Overhand lead or rear hook. Which can be vertical or horizonal JKD from vertical to slightly diagonal. Tell Ali. Tell tyson. That there punchs are nothing because they are not vertical. What book Are you reading from. May I suggest. you visit a fewdifferent schools. And perhaps a boxing gym. See that although verical is more alined with the body. There are other punches that hold well in use.

Wow, you can't read. We're discussing the application of a vertical fist in a centerline (i.e. straight) punch, nothing more.