Can Karate be effective?

[Mad_Mally]

Maybe

Most karate that people learn in pay and train Mcdojo's isn't really effective in any sort of street encounter. The instructors just don't have a sense of reality when it comes to fights. Fights are fast, nasty, and unpredictible. Most store front karate dojo's teach you karate for sport, good exercise, and disiciple. In the street sports karate will get you killed. Those of you that think that because you can jump in the air and perform a spinning roundhouse kick that you are some sort of badass, are sorely mistaken. Karate is only effective if you train effectively. Training effectively means working your basics at home, working out at home, and focusing on simple but effective self defense techiques. You also have to work on improvising you defense and techinques to match a shifting combat environment. Most karate schools are to busy throwing birthday parties at their dojos (a defilement of the dojo in my opinion) to teach adequate self defense. In short take up kickboxing or boxing, your fighting skills, stamina, and power will be a lot better than your average backfist throwing-multiple front roundhouse throwing point fighter. If you insist on learning karate I suggest that you do your home work and research the system and school that you are looking at. If they throw birthday parties don't join because if you try to use the stuff that they teach you at a place like that you will be either killed, severely hurt, or just embarrassed by your average roundhouse punch throwing street thug. That's my advice from me to you.

[bodhisattva]

The real key to whether your system "works" or not is based in how your teacher has you training. It has little to do with what the system is called.

If your gym has you fighting resisting opponents with progressive levels of resistance, you are probably in a good place. If your gym has you working stand-up, clinch, and groundfighting against a resisting opponent, you are probably at a good place. If people at your gym have a high level of athletic ability, they have strong muscles and a great deal of wind.. then you are probably at a good place.

If everyone at your gym is weak, and no one there could run 2 miles and then run 2 more, and no one is really, TRULY resisting anyone, ever.. If your gym has you doing "kata" to find fighting techniques, or it has you practicing blocks and punches in thin air.. If your gym requires you to suck up to teachers that never fight with you, or, worse, have the classes doing "point sparring" (like in the karate kid).. Then you should probably look for a gym that more closely matches paragraph 1, above.

That's how I see it.

--

[Cobra_nVidia]

Well, that wasn't the kind of answer I was looking for, but it's not "wrong"

Of course more realistic training creates more effective practicioners. There's a great example of this in Karate

Most Karate-ka have never heard of Choki Motobu, but he helped make the art famous in Japan. He entered a competition against a boxer, and knocked him out. And this was after the boxer had already defeated many Judomen.

The thing about Motobu was he was a real fighter. He didn't, in fact, train sparring in the dojo, he actually fought out in Naha, and gained a reputation as an amazing fighter.

Nothing can take the place of real fighting experience - and the more realistic the better.

But really, can Karate be effective? If you go back to the origins of the art, and not the modern "styles" can you learn things that will help you survive an attack?

Roberlee, I agree with you certainly. People do look at Kata wrong.

For one thing, people learn too many, and have them all floating around at the same time. Even in the 40's, Tsuyoshi Chitose had his students learn a kata for 5 years, then it was over, you didn't see it again. People spend more time trying to keep them straight then practicing breathing, speed, etc.

I don't have a specific problem with people using their own applications, but most applications people come up with, will not work. If it can work in sparring, it MIGHT work in self-defense. Again, the fact that people learn too many Kata is a problem for learning bunkai.

[robertlee]

Learning to understand .And seperate in Kata Becomes a problem. All training tools in kata. Is seperated defend and counter tools put in a balanced motion called kata. JUst as you read a book Kata is just a chapter in that book. Each block strike stance and movement. is a seperate sentance and paragraph. To keep as lone training. Bunki 2 man applied training lets you see how each tool can be applied. in different attacks and defence actions. Kisokumite trains prearranged selfdefence actions. Then when seen right. It all has to break down. To what you use for that moment. No kata is a fighting action Just a way to train the tools solo . Each person Has to understand how they can applie what they train. Thru sparring. And it should become at least light contact. So you know you did get it in. Pulling leads to A little false insight . As some pull to early to ever get a strike kick ect in. Any art can be effective if its applied. HOW many street fighters that have never studied any thing But can very well handle there own. Why they commit. They apply Pickup as they fight more what can work for them. Thats what you do in the M/A to. All the training in the world wont make you a fighter. Testing it leads you more to that. And you improve from there. All thats in just one Art of karate is more tools then you would ever use in any fight. Get good at a few in the different ranges And your effective. Pass on to others what you learned. And put some tool on the shelf keep them trained. And at times you will use them in a pinch when they are needed. Most of all ADAPT. to use

[binski20]

The real key to whether your system "works" or not is based in how your teacher has you training. It has little to do with what the system is called.

If your gym has you fighting resisting opponents with progressive levels of resistance, you are probably in a good place. If your gym has you working stand-up, clinch, and groundfighting against a resisting opponent, you are probably at a good place. If people at your gym have a high level of athletic ability, they have strong muscles and a great deal of wind.. then you are probably at a good place.

If everyone at your gym is weak, and no one there could run 2 miles and then run 2 more, and no one is really, TRULY resisting anyone, ever.. If your gym has you doing "kata" to find fighting techniques, or it has you practicing blocks and punches in thin air.. If your gym requires you to suck up to teachers that never fight with you, or, worse, have the classes doing "point sparring" (like in the karate kid).. Then you should probably look for a gym that more closely matches paragraph 1, above.

That's how I see it.

--

Exactly. Styles such as karate could be quite effective. Punches, kicks, knees, elbows......all the strikes are there. The key however is in the training. IF you look at the styles generally considered to be effective, ie. boxing, muay thai, ju jitsu, judo , they all train in this fashion. Techniques are taught and developed, and as the skill of the practitioner develops they are applied against a live ,resisiting opponent. An opponent who is trying to do the same thing you are......dominate a fight. That is the biggest key. This is why there are street thugs out there with no formal training who can make a trained fighter look like an amateur. They have experience in fighting. Boxers box....that makes them effective. They train to take and give punches....that is what a fight is about. If you train point sparring, training not to hit, or to be hit......you may be in for surprise should the time come to hit or be hit.

[Cobra_nVidia]

Effective training methods train great fighters. Karate training methods were more severe in Okinawa. Balance was trained on logs, not just ones that had fall over, but ones in the water chained to the shore. They were ROUGH.

Even early Japanese Karate was more severe than today, but not entirely effective, as many of the applications were lost from the mainstream thanks to Itosu and Funakoshi. Karatemen fought one another with no rules. Eye gouging, groin shots, punches to the teeth, etc. A Karateman even defeated a boxer, and easily

Here's an interesting article that helps you understand Karate

http://www.savateaustralia.com/Savate%20Essays/Bare-Knuckles%20to%20Modern%20Boxing.htm

Yup, it's about bare-knuckle boxing. Most likely, this came from greece to india to china to Okinawa, from china to Japan, and from Japan to Okinawa (OKinawans incorporated ju-jutsu into their fighting, which was itself greatly influenced by Chinese boxing. They also incorporated Chinese boxing itself. Hence the name, "Toudi", or T'ang Hand")
So you see, close range punches are not what parries are designed for. At that range, it's more natural (and effective) to grab an opponent than to hold your fists close and try to knock them out before they knock you out. Unfortunately, most styles don't teach grappling, but many of the concepts of Karate grappling are parallel to other asian fighting "styles", such as Kodokan Judo. In a Karate fight, the opponents might have fought on their feet, but tripping, throwing, and grabing their opponent would have been used instead of uppercuts and hooks.

[HtTKar]

Interesting article Cobra_nVidia but this artical is about bare-knuckle boxing, and teaches to throw a vertical punch, and old-syle boxing stance. I agree with this artical, but have to say, this artical has nothing whatsoever to do with karate.

[Cobra_nVidia]

Interesting article Cobra_nVidia but this artical is about bare-knuckle boxing, and teaches to throw a vertical punch, and old-syle boxing stance. I agree with this artical, but have to say, this artical has nothing whatsoever to do with karate.

Not true,
What is Karate? Okinawan boxing. It using essentially the same ideas, but they were taught weapons as well.

You've never heard of a vertical punch in Karate? It exists but isn't used in the mainstream because it isn't compatible with "Kime", the wrist will simply not stop moving to the target. It's in Gong Fu as well. That is how you punch someone with bare knuckles to the face or sternum.

You've never seen straight punches in Karate? Never heard of parrying? Never heard of a Karate throw? A Karate sweep? A Karate choke? Never seen shotokan people throwing punches from a long distance away?

[HtTKar]

I get what you mean, that it's about fighting without gloves. Almost all arts do that. Almost every art punches, kicks, yells, and has some stances. But this article is not about karate. Almost all arts have empy-hand fighting, but they are still different arts. Boxing is not the same as savate. neither Savate, MT, or Burmese boxing are the same, but they are still more similar than karate-v-boxing. If there is anybody that knows neither boxing, nor karate, this article will just leave them confused.

Also, and you know more than I. In karate a verticle fist is used mainly for close range, and usually at the Chudan area. Old-style boxing used the principle of "power-line punching" and would use a verticle fist for almost all strikes. They use the same weapons but the principles are a little different throughout the arts. .

[Cobra_nVidia]

Well, I don't know the specifics, I can only imagine, because most Karate is based on "child's style" which is prevalent even in okinawa.

I would tend to use a vertical fist against the FACE or the STERNUM. Neither at close range. I believe there to be more effective techniques at close range. But a straight punch at long range makes it difficult to close in on you. At least if it's fast, natural, and can take the head at very very fast speeds.

[HtTKar]

Well, I don't know the specifics, I can only imagine, because most Karate is based on "child's style" which is prevalent even in okinawa.

I would tend to use a vertical fist against the FACE or the STERNUM. Neither at close range. I believe there to be more effective techniques at close range. But a straight punch at long range makes it difficult to close in on you. At least if it's fast, natural, and can take the head at very very fast speeds.

I agree with all of this. And I can see what you mean about "Child's style", though I have never heard the phrase. When most people see karate, they see low, wide stances, and robotic punches. Fighting like this would be rediculious, and nobodies meant to fight like this. These are for kata, and show because they look pretty. Unfortunatly that's what most peoples impression of karate is, even some students; even some teachers.

[Cobra_nVidia]

I know what you mean about robotic. Real Karate is fluid, but I didn't understand this until tonight, which is why I'm not asleep right now.

This is OLD-SCHOOL OKINAWAN STREET PUNCHING

To punch, you must spring a joint. By spring I mean snap so it goes forward and back naturally. At the farthest point, it is moving the fastest (like a spring, if you know your physics)
ELBOW:
The first joint you can spring is your elbow. The creates a good straight punch, and allows you to punch with all your knuckles. You can attack the face and sternum with this punch, and well.
Shoulder
The second joint you can spring is your shoulder. This reinforces the elbow spring because the spring of the shoulder will accelerate the elbow, and the power of the elbow spring can still be generated at the joint. So it's a lot more powerful. Unfortunately, to do this you need to turn the first horizontal, so the punch is stronger, but the force can no longer be taken by the fist. If you train bare knuckled like this (or with any horizontal punch) you will feel the arm buckling, and instinctively protect your arm by weakening the punch.
You know we're communicating when, if you do this, your hip is accelerated as well, which brings me to
Hips
The third and most important body "joint" (I don't know if this is a joint motion, but it feels like a spring) is the hips. The hips will accelerate the shoulder, which will accelerate the elbow, which can snap to the target with great force. Again, it's a vertical fist, and hence is very stable.

So the hips are the center of Karate. It's interesting to see the half-truths present in modern interpretations of the Okinawan Martial Art. All three of these must be allowed to spring, not just "push" to the target. The one that springs the most is the hip, followed by the shoulder, followed by the elbow, which can't spring as well, but is accelerated at a much faster speed than it could be without the hips.This way, the fist will have the greatest momentum at the intended distance. As well, the acceleration of the spring (which is positive during the punch) will help negate the deccelleration (sp?) caused by hitting the target and causes an impact, forces, and an energy transfer.

[HtTKar]

True, as I'm sure everyones heard. Power is developed in the legs, accellerated by the hips and transfered through your body out your arms. The punch you described is a whirling punch, and still relies a lot on shoulder strength to perform. You do lose a lot of momentum because you arm ends up moving in a different direction than the rest of you body. It is not the most efficient way to punch. The harder you try to throw this punch the more your body will have to loop it, in order to compensate for the different directions you are moving. Try throwing that punch, and then pulling back hard at the last second, your body will spin from the whirling.

It would be much better to use vertical fists down the powerline. This way, no power is lost. Using the same experiment as for the whirling punch, you'd see that your body doesnt turn at all. The power is being delivered in the same direction that you body is moving in.

Also one thing to add. When you throw the punch you body should lurch forward. Your backfoot will raise up, and you will push off your koshi, as your front foot falls towards your opponent. This will add another spring to your punch, and increase power.

Just about anybody that knows how to throw hard hits fast, is going to be pretty effective in a fight.

[Cobra_nVidia]

Well there's more to add of course. Because of the combat range of Karate punches, you would step, not only because it "adds power" but because if you do not, you can't reach your opponent. Karate linear punches are NOT close range. They are designed to deal with an opponent that is too far away to trip, flip, arm-lock, or grab in any way.

Perhaps I will someday find a more effective punch, but as it stands, I cannot see a more natural, quick, or powerful punch than the okinawan method from Matsumura's time - when it was used for combat. The fist doesn't swing around the outside of the body as it might appear. It's only the elbow that does that. The fist moves effectively down the powerline, if by powerline you mean centerline

[HtTKar]

powerline and centerline are different.

Make a vertical fist and stick your arm out. relax or you can lean against a wall. You will see that there is a straight line from your shoulder down your arm into your pinky. This would be the most powerfull punch. However, the bones in your hand behind your pinky are weak and would break if you hit somebody like that. So to hit somebody using the powerline, you aim vertical fist with your ringfinger. By aiming with your ringfinger you end up connecting with your middle-finger/ringfinger/&pinky. This will add a lot of natural power to your punch, and because of the straightness of the punch, will be difficult to see coming. Your arm moves in the exact direction as the mass of your body.

When you do a traditional karate two-knuckle horizontal punch, your shoulder needs to do some of the work. When you do this, it causes your punches to loop slightly. The harder you punch the more your punches will loop in. This is because your arm is moving at a slightly different direction than the rest of your bodies mass.

Did you watch the movie KillBill II? There's a fight between two woman. You can see that their punches are looping because they are throwing two-knuckle punches. It's just an example. I wish I could draw a picture, I cant explain it very well. But if you stick your arm out horizontal fist, you see that it's not exactly a straight line from your pinky to your shoulder, as it is with a verticle fist.

In both punches you attempt to move them directly down centerline, however only vertical punches use the powerline effectively.