Difference between Judo and Japanese Jujitsu

[BoarSpear]

thats good stuff and without that drawing there may naver have been the Royler we know.

WTF???????????????????????????????????????????????????????? HELLO........ exactly what number is the freakin BUTTSCOOT?

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?t=18384&highlight=WTF+is+royler+doing

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

There are countless joint breaks, not all of which can be done in a slow and controlled manner.

And yes, many wrist, finger, and elbow joint breaks are in JJJ, and a great deal of them are done quickly from a standing position, without controlling the opponent and asking him if he wants to tap out.

If they were actually effective on a resisting opponent, then why arent they in GJJ. The Gracies werent concerned whether their opponent was able to Tap out or not for sport reasons, thats just ridiculus!

[Tant01]

Know of a link to a picture of that variation? I've never done either, but how I'm picturing an outside version of that lock it seems like it would be very hard to get position. The one in the picture you posted appealed to me because you could try it from a failed throw or even fake a throw to get it. I've gotta try it in randori

No picture... I might look later but for now think of a cross between arm drag throw and that arm bar from the outside...Same lock opposite side of Ukes arm...

[Tant01]

They call it Kimura...Americana or bar?

If they were actually effective on a resisting opponent, then why arent they in GJJ. The Gracies werent concerned whether their opponent was able to Tap out or not for sport reasons, thats just ridiculus!

And you wonder why you're on the troll list....


Here's a little clue, STFU!!

Helio never even learned the names for his Judo techniques... that should tell you something?

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

And you wonder why you're on the troll list....


Here's a little clue, STFU!!

Helio never even learned the names for his Judo techniques... that should tell you something?

Dude, i dont wanna argue, but what do you mean. Look, if any grappling move is effective, its in GJJ right?

[Tant01]

WTF???????????????????????????????????????????????????????? HELLO........ exactly what number is the freakin BUTTSCOOT?

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/s...s+royler+doing

I don't know Boar Spear.... That's crappy Judo though? Maybe he's trying to wipe on the deck because Sak made him crap in his trunks? Too funny! I must have missed that thread and that "fight(?)"

Sheeeesh! Sad day for Jujutsu, that's for sure.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

In the Royler vs. Sakuraba match, Royler was knocked down several times...and he cant just stand up cuz he'd get KTFO so he was defending with his legs and trying to lure Sak back into his guard. Its realy not that big of a deal, other mma fighters have used that same tactic, especially if their strong point is ground grappling...but Royler sucks at mma fighting and he not even the astounding of a grappler either.

[Tant01]

Dude, i dont wanna argue, but what do you mean. Look, if any grappling move is effective, its in GJJ right?

Not even close! What they do is called NEWAZA (in Judo). Ground grappling. Have you ever seen a BJJ/GJJ player tap out standing up?

Didn't think so...

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Not even close! What they do is called NEWAZA (in Judo). Ground grappling. Have you ever seen a BJJ/GJJ player tap out standing up?

Didn't think so...

Im not trying to be a troll right now, i just want info.
Who taps out standing up unless its a Gi choke or a guillotine or a standing armbar/kneebar?

[Mikeb85]

WTF???????????????????????????????????????????????????????? HELLO........ exactly what number is the freakin BUTTSCOOT?

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/s...s+royler+doing

Wow, that's just sad. And to think at the end of the video the Gracies were actually complaining that the ref stopped it (Royler didn't tap), I'm amazed his arm didn't break... Reminds me of Yoshida v. Royce 1, Yoshida had Royce in a pinning/choking technique which Royce couldn't defend, Royce appeared to be unconcious and when the ref stops the fight the Gracies bitch and whine... You would think they'd have SOME takedown techniques, but all they do is fall into guard and try to drag down the opponent...

[danfaggella]

Oh I know that fight. However, I'll tell you right now that Royler is one of the best grapplers in thw world, and hes a pretty premier fighter as well, though he doesn't fight that much these days.

Also, that picture of the Judo techniques has one of a guy doing an open gaurd technique, not all of which is butt-scooting and getting leg-kicked. I was kind of pointing it out as a little joke towards Royler, because the guy in the picture appears to be doing something Royler was doing in that fight.

Also, saying that ALL EFFECTIVE GRAPPLING TECHNIQUES ARE IN BJJ is rediculous, there is a while lot in other martial arts and there is plenty that nobody has realized yet. The biggest aspect of joint locking missing in BJJ (IMO) is joint locks that are instantanious, breaking techniques that don't require you to wrap up an opponent on the ground. This is logical, however, because BJJ trains almost exclusively in a sportive manner, and they must be able to ask "you gunna tap?" Obviously I don't want to be rolling with my BJJ people and just snap thier fingers or smash through thier elbow joint. BJJ certainly has a lot of value, and has built off the GREAT fundementals of Newaza, that Tant loves so very much. However, there are non-sportive techniques that are a bit hypothetical (you can't test them in competition) but very effective and logical, ESPECIALLY for self-defence. When I'm in the street and someone grabs my wrist, I might arm drag them, I might get my arm out of thier hand, or I might just quickly grip a few fingers and snap them, then hold on to them and shake them until I take a few off the guys hand.

I know it wasn't your aim, but your comment was veryclosed minded, and some people will snap at you for that.

[danfaggella]

Also Mike (sorry for the double post guys), please don't tell us all how much GJJ sucks and how much the Gracies suck. Nobody should be saying that boxing sucks just because Royce beat the shit out of a boxer in the frst UFC in about 5 seconds.

You certainly watch sportive fighting and understand its validity.

[Tant01]

Good enough...

....Obviously I don't want to be rolling with my BJJ people and just snap thier fingers or smash through thier elbow joint. BJJ certainly has a lot of value, and has built off the GREAT fundementals of Newaza, that Tant loves so very much. However, there are non-sportive techniques that are a bit hypothetical (you can't test them in competition) but very effective and logical, ESPECIALLY for self-defence. ....

Who said I love newaza? I'm more of an Atemi guy.

I have said that the only difference between a submission (compliance hold) and a DESTRUCTION is a few pounds of torque. That fairly sums up the difference between Judo and Jujutsu as well. One is for playing the other for fighting. It's like letting go of your choke hold or not... subtle because there is little difference in techniques but INTENT.

That is not the only difference of course but it gives an idea of the application. Kicking out a locked knee is good jujutsu but bad Judo.

[danfaggella]

True.

Though I see a lot of benefit for sportive (tap-out friendly) joint manipulation, because they can be functionalized and practice over and over again.

Destruction is (as you stated) different from submission, admitadly the different is only a bit of torque or speed. However, the technique can change a whole lot. For example:

In the street someone has a locked knee and I kick it and snap it.

In an MMA fight someone has a locked knee and I hold my foot on it and see if they will tap while aplying preasure slowly.

The latter would not work. These destruction techniques can be done from a standing position to many many joints, because they only require quick breaks, and you don't need to hold the guy down and let the ref decide when to end the fight, or let him tap from pain. These are great for the street and anyone interested in self defense should understand the basics of joint destruction. Yet, the techniques are a bit hypothetical compared to sport tehniques, you'd agree right Tant? I mean, its very hard to practice breaking a manys outstreatched arm with a strike to his elbow, or kicking out a locked knee.

[Tant01]

You know.... Good enough.

True.

Though I see a lot of benefit for sportive (tap-out friendly) joint manipulation, because they can be functionalized and practice over and over again.

Destruction is (as you stated) different from submission, admitadly the different is only a bit of torque or speed. However, the technique can change a whole lot. For example:

In the street someone has a locked knee and I kick it and snap it.

In an MMA fight someone has a locked knee and I hold my foot on it and see if they will tap while aplying preasure slowly.

The latter would not work. ....
.. Yet, the techniques are a bit hypothetical compared to sport tehniques, you'd agree right Tant? I mean, its very hard to practice breaking a mans outstreatched arm with a strike to his elbow, or kicking out a locked knee.

Yes. Kansetsu jeri needs a bit of chambering but lifting your foot to his knee works as a nice jamming (checking) technique with proper timing.

That's why Jujutsu has Kata. There are many (theoretical) things you can do to imaginary enemies that you can't really practice on a friend or fellow student...At least not with intent or full force.

We can leave it at that if you don't mind. I don't care to share things like this with the many neophites that frequent the forum. They may figure it out in their own good time or maybe not. I don't care.


Tant01 out...