Q: Experienced Ground Fighters

[CoN]

First and foremost i'd like to say that this is my first post here and im very glad I found these forums as they are a great source of information reguarding martial arts. This place is truly an amazing place for discussions and questions relative to different fighting styles.

I recently started to get involved in learning about martial arts and tried out a number of different styles, shotokan, tae kwon do etc. I found Wing Chun to the most comfortable for me personally and so I went ahead and looked up different dojos that offer class, managed to find one i've been learning wc for about a month now.

Ground fighting really caught my interest after doing a bit of research about it and I am seriously considering to cross train in it or the very least learning it after I finish my wc training. It appeals to me as extremely effective. If you were to manage to grapple someone to the ground, their fighting ability would be very limited and they would not be able to do much at all.

I brought up what a wc practioner would do against a grappler one day in class and my SiFu talked about it briefly. He showed us a few techniques in class and explained some things. I mentioned to him that i've often seen other wc practioners get taken down and they were not able to do anything much about it.

My SiFu said that the problem is that most people would often try to wrestle their way out when they are on the ground and its a terrible idea because a ground fighter would specialize in grappling. He explained that when a wc practioner gets taken down, they would bring Wing Chun techniques with them to the ground, from eye strikes to chain punches, etc. Basically he warned to try not to grapple against a ground fighter and do anything possible to get back on your feet.

My question about ground fighting against other styles is quite often a grappler close in and would shoot for the waist/leg area to take an opponent. What would usually happen if he/she had missed or even worst landed in a knee (One of the drills I had practiced in wc class involved side stepping and kneeing a ground fighter in the face when I had brought up the topic) or a kick in the face? How does a ground fighter get around a another person's defence? It seems like you would get hurt often if you just recklessly charge in for a grapple especially when your opponent is cautious.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

If it was that easy to land the knee, you would see it mch more ofen in MMA fights, as it is you rarely see it happening
Only when this is the only way the grappler tries to attack, you might see it happening but most will have more than one way to get you down (suplex?)
Also because they are cautious of the knee they will set it up with some punching
Lastly speed, the shoot for the waist/leg area is fast, probably faster than you are doing it in the excercise
Try the excercise with multiple possible attacks, adding a hip and arm throw or a tripping technique while appying the overhooks, raise the speed and you will notice that it much harder to defend against the takedown

Adn let's not forget, on the streets, how would you know someone is a grappler and as a result be cautious for the takedown?

Now I'm not an experienced grappler ( did some judo and jujitsu in the past as well as some MMA) so others might have a different opinion

I would say find a MMA or BJJ dojo for crosstraining, those will probably allow you to tryout your tricks ( as long as you leave out the eye gouching)

[Shard]

I'm glad you are seriously considering learning ground fighting. Its a good idea, NOW DO IT.

You see the thing is, A footballer does a take down from a long distance, a grappler on the other hand will attempt a take down from nothing more than a punch range. Most of the time, its done with a feign, A fake jab/snap kick to distract your attention from a takedown.
Yes knees do work. Only under the condition that the grappler attempts it from a long range(outside of kick range), anything closer than that and you won't react fast enough.

The only True anti-grapple is to grapple. Sorry thats the truth. Chain punches don't work(as well as they should)because on the ground you lack the hip/shoulder movement nessary to produce power in your punch. Eye grouges/strikes are dangerous, not for your opponent but for you. The technique involved in a eye-strike leaves you dead open to an Arm-Bar, shit, you giving your arm to him.

Anyone who honestly believes that 1 or 2 moves can counter a life-time of hardwork and dedication, seriously needs to rethink his/her strategy.

[BoarSpear]

I'm glad you are seriously considering learning ground fighting. Its a good idea, NOW DO IT.

You see the thing is, A footballer does a take down from a long distance, a grappler on the other hand will attempt a take down from nothing more than a punch range. Most of the time, its done with a feign, A fake jab/snap kick to distract your attention from a takedown.
Yes knees do work. Only under the condition that the grappler attempts it from a long range(outside of kick range), anything closer than that and you won't react fast enough.

The only True anti-grapple is to grapple. Sorry thats the truth. Chain punches don't work(as well as they should)because on the ground you lack the hip/shoulder movement nessary to produce power in your punch. Eye grouges/strikes are dangerous, not for your opponent but for you. The technique involved in a eye-strike leaves you dead open to an Arm-Bar, shit, you giving your arm to him.

Anyone who honestly believes that 1 or 2 moves can counter a life-time of hardwork and dedication, seriously needs to rethink his/her strategy.

Nice post.

[m_calingo]

I also agree that it's important to cross train. My instructor briefly introduced us to some mat work he learned from a GJJ seminar he attended years ago.

As part of the class, we traded positions being in the guard positions, and the mount. When I was on the mat, and my partner was sitting on my chest, I felt like a fish out of the water. There really wasn't much I could do.

If you're in the same position, only thing I can think of (short of training in the full system of BJJ) is a rabbit punch,or an elbow to the guy's jewels. That's not allowed in the ring, but out on the street, anything goes, right?

[Tant01]

Bot Jaam Do? (Got swords?) LOL

[JkD187]

I also agree that it's important to cross train. My instructor briefly introduced us to some mat work he learned from a GJJ seminar he attended years ago.

As part of the class, we traded positions being in the guard positions, and the mount. When I was on the mat, and my partner was sitting on my chest, I felt like a fish out of the water. There really wasn't much I could do.

If you're in the same position, only thing I can think of (short of training in the full system of BJJ) is a rabbit punch,or an elbow to the guy's jewels. That's not allowed in the ring, but out on the street, anything goes, right?

Good luck trying to do those things when you have absolutely no ground experience to know what to do after you either achieve your goal or fail(most likely the latter) you MUST have a good baase in groundfighting to be able to successfully use eye gouges or bites or pinches...a good example would be if your mounted by a good grappler and you cant escape...use and eye gouge or bite combined with a hip escape to scramble to your knees.Now if you cant hip escape all you have done is piss the guy off and your likely to get very very hurt.My case in point....get a good base in grappling then add the dirt.

[m_calingo]

Now if you cant hip escape all you have done is piss the guy off and your likely to get very very hurt.

I believe I did mention that cross training was important, didn't I?

[JkD187]

I believe I did mention that cross training was important, didn't I?

yes you did...but then you started going on about rabbit punches and groin shots and all the lot.....which none of them can be achived unless you have good ground fighting skills....that dose not ness mean bjj it can mean w.e g.f art you chose to study...then getting good at it and adding the dirt...my point was to let you know that without having a FUNCTIONAL BASE your SD ground fighting is a lost cause.

[m_calingo]

Point taken.

[Balor]

CoN - good to see another WC'er contemplating cross training to incorporate ground skills. I am a WC'er and live & train with a BJJ'er - and I can assure you, WC principles do NOT easily translate to the ground, especially when most WC practitioners (that I know of anyway) do not spend the time required to learn to apply such skills on the ground (and I won't even get into a discussion as to what I think of these WC ground skills).

Furthermore, the BJJ'er I live with specifically trains in class to do their best to negate WC techs. Unlike some BJJ self professed heroes, the instructors at the BJJ school have a learnt respect for the close in striking capabilities of a competant WC'er and thus they cater for this in their training.

Keep an open mind and have a roll with an experienced BJJ'er - injury free is the key, but give it a go and hopefully you'll see what I mean.

I have been taken down by some very unorthodox BJJ techniques, at extremely close range and once you're playing their game, it's not pleasant.

[bigboywasim]

I am glad you are thinking of learning ground fighting. I believe all martial artists should have a grappling background. Try to find a good MMA school. BJJ plus wrestling is a deadly combo. I also love Judo for throws and stand up grappling. The choice is yours but just find a really good school. It makes a hell of a difference.

[danfaggella]

"My SiFu said that the problem is that most people would often try to wrestle their way out when they are on the ground and its a terrible idea because a ground fighter would specialize in grappling. He explained that when a wc practioner gets taken down, they would bring Wing Chun techniques with them to the ground, from eye strikes to chain punches, etc. Basically he warned to try not to grapple against a ground fighter and do anything possible to get back on your feet."

The ground is an entirely different scenario, with its own very unique set of skills and concepts. A TKD guy isn't going to be doing anymore roundhouse kicks on the ground. You must learn to grapple in order to avoid grappling, just as a grappler must learn striking so that he can avoid being hit and and possably get a few hits in before he clinches and drags his opponent to the gorund.

[JkD187]

"My SiFu said that the problem is that most people would often try to wrestle their way out when they are on the ground and its a terrible idea because a ground fighter would specialize in grappling. He explained that when a wc practioner gets taken down, they would bring Wing Chun techniques with them to the ground, from eye strikes to chain punches, etc. Basically he warned to try not to grapple against a ground fighter and do anything possible to get back on your feet."

The ground is an entirely different scenario, with its own very unique set of skills and concepts. A TKD guy isn't going to be doing anymore roundhouse kicks on the ground. You must learn to grapple in order to avoid grappling, just as a grappler must learn striking so that he can avoid being hit and and possably get a few hits in before he clinches and drags his opponent to the gorund.

Exactly.What he said is exactly what you should def avoid....the only way to learn how to grapple is to GRAPPLE.

[explorer]

Ground Fighting

Hi Guys,

Wrestling was my first martial art and I believe the first thing you do after your opponent shoots is the most important. Whether the attacker tackles you at the waist or tries a single or double leg takedown, their head is vulnerable ... and, as the old wrestling saw says ... "where the head goes, the man goes".

My first move when someone attackes in this way is to immediately get my legs back and away from the attacker ... while at the same time pressing into his shoulder with my hips. This puts enormous stress on his grip.

Next I force my forearm between my body and the attackers head, using the bone edge on the thumb side to rake his eye or nose. While arching my back, I drive his head away from my body until I can anchor my hand on his tricep. At this point I have a superior mechanical position and I take my man to the mat ... hard ... with a pancake. If you're just having fun ... be careful, the neck is in a highly compromised position.

This is a basic wrestling move called a crossface ... 'cause your forarm goes across the attackers face.

The trick is to feel the shoot coming early enough to respond in this way. If you're too late he'll pull you into his chest and dump you on your side or back.

To develop the feel necessary ... practice, practice, practice.

Scot Combs