Biting? A technique or a girly move??

[jubaji]

That "dirty trick", done correctly, will completely reverse their fortunes.

Thanks for completely missing the point.

[sojobow]

Thanks for completely missing the point.

You're probably right in that I missed your point. I'll try again.

First, and foremost, I'd try to avoid biting. Who knows what the opponent may have in his bloodstream. I'd also avoid kneeing and hitting someone in the mouth for the same reason as his teeth breaks my skin. You make a good point though. I'll try to find the name of the ancient FMA style now taught in the States. I artform was originally used to grapple with Bulls. What we mention here as "tricks" is actually the main course in the FMA artform.

[sojobow]

The style I mentioned above is DUMOG. It isn't nice. Hopefully, I'm getting closer to your point. If not, help me out.

[Hikage]

The problem, it seems to me, is that most folks who (vocally anyway) advocate this sort of thing see it as making up for weaknesses in their ability rather than as a supplement to it. Could biting somehow, someway be a part of a successful series of steps taken in a conflict? Sure. But certain folks have it in their head that even if they are at every other disadvantage in a conflict and (especially!) if they are getting the worst of an exchange because of their weaknesses, that a 'dirty trick' (not my term) will somehow completely reverse their fortunes.

That kind of mentality will only put someone in a bad situation and make it worse.

This is a good post with a well thought-out point and I agree entirely with the situation you present. However, there are techniques that I reserve as my aces-in the hole. I would use them more often, but they run the risk of becoming predictable. We all know people who go for the eye gauge every time they hit the floor.

Example:

There was a 6'6" guy in my class who was always in competition with me (dude is HUGE). Since I out rank him, it seemed as if he always had to challenge me. For a while, it seemed that one day, he and I were going to have it out to one extent or another. I am aware that he is extremely vulnerable to being slapped in the areas under the breastplate and in the kidneys. I've hit him once or twice in practice, saw the effect, and then logged it in the rolodex of my mind for the day it becomes necessary. To practice it over and over would train him to become use to it and how/when to block it.

For the record: We've since settled down. As he was in the class longer and longer, he gained more confidence with his own skills and didn't see the need to proove himself.

I'm not using the slaps in hopes that it would turn the situation in case things go sour, but I am keeping them under wraps to maximaze the surprise factor.

-Hikage

[Garland]

The problem, it seems to me, is that most folks who (vocally anyway) advocate this sort of thing see it as making up for weaknesses in their ability rather than as a supplement to it. Could biting somehow, someway be a part of a successful series of steps taken in a conflict? Sure. But certain folks have it in their head that even if they are at every other disadvantage in a conflict and (especially!) if they are getting the worst of an exchange because of their weaknesses, that a 'dirty trick' (not my term) will somehow completely reverse their fortunes.

That kind of mentality will only put someone in a bad situation and make it worse.

Meh...I dunno man.
I think that people should strive to develop a great stand up game, a good grappling game, and a good weapon game...but if you think about it-
technique wise, grappling works an equalizer for striking, why shouldn't really sickening foul tactic shit work as an equalizer for grappling?

It should be supplemented, I give you that, not used as a substitute...
but it DOES help reverse the fortunes of the losing combatant and equal out the situtation because it creates other opportunities...right?

I dunno...does this line of thinking make sense, or am I drunk?

[Garland]

When's the last time you saw anyone train a good hard bite on a resisting opponent? When's the last time you had a sparring partner jab you in the eye? You know the tools can work, but like a jab or a round kick - getting to where they'll land is a different matter when the other guy is legitimately angry and trying to hurt you. I think it's just a matter of keeping things in perspective. Don't allow them (or any other tool for that matter) to be more than it really is.

I actually did spar with a kid who freaked the **** out and ended up trying to bite me.
Pretty funny shit.

I've also....accidentilly raked somebodies eye training prummb.

But that's irrelevant...you're right.

[jubaji]

Meh...I dunno man.
I think that people should strive to develop a great stand up game, a good grappling game, and a good weapon game...but if you think about it-
technique wise, grappling works an equalizer for striking, why shouldn't really sickening foul tactic shit work as an equalizer for grappling?

It should be supplemented, I give you that, not used as a substitute...
but it DOES help reverse the fortunes of the losing combatant and equal out the situtation because it creates other opportunities...right?

I dunno...does this line of thinking make sense, or am I drunk?

You are drunk.

Using words like "sickening foul tactic shit" makes it sound cool and oh-so-dangerous, but its an illusion. Let's say you are in a boxing match and you are getting your ass kicked badly (just for the sake of argument). If you spit in the eye of your opponent, will you suddenly not be getting your ass kicked? Only in the movies. In reality, the person who is clearly better than you because of his skills and physical abilities will now still be better than you and want to kick your ass even worse. He, unlike you, will have the ability to do so. If your skill levels are almost equal it might have more of an impact, but is still a bad idea because it distracts you from focusing on your skill set and may even leave you vulnerable while you are doing it.

Grappling often works as an equalizer to striking because grappling is a real skill that the striker may not have. Its not a trick or a substitute for skill. Biting, eye-gouging, pinching, whatever is more likely to put you in a more vulnerable position against someone who is better at grappling than it is to suddenly alter reality.

People want to believe that something sneaky, simple, or 'dirty' is all it takes to turn the tables the same way they want to believe that 2 weeks of krotty classes at the strip mall will suddenly make them able to effortlessly beat the bully who kicks sand at them on the beach, or that buying a new brand of deodorant will make the girls who don't give them the time of day now just lose control of themselves and throw themselves at you. Life doesn't work that way.

[Garland]

You are drunk.

Using words like "sickening foul tactic shit" makes it sound cool and oh-so-dangerous, but its an illusion. Let's say you are in a boxing match and you are getting your ass kicked badly (just for the sake of argument). If you spit in the eye of your opponent, will you suddenly not be getting your ass kicked?

Only if you can capitalize on the few split-seconds you give yourself by obscurring their vision.

Biting and spitting, and pinching, etc are things you can use to distract an opponent, when you're in a shit position, to give you enough time to try and turn the tables quickly using more effective techniques.
Grabbing the hair can help to create leverage to open up striking options or can be used to faccilitate throwing an opponent.

IF you know what you're doing, and it's serious enough, you probably could use some of these things as finishers. A strike to the throat is not some uber-super-duper hard to pull off technique, it's just a strike...targeted at the throat. If you manage to learn how to get the angle right as to not have your teeth hydro-plane over the flesh, and the trick to biting using your incisors to rip through flesh, instead of just hanging on and being a mere annoyance...yeah...I'm pretty sure you could bite open an artery.

Grazing the eye...is the same as spitting...
Gouging the eye is different, blinding an opponent permanently sounds to me like you ended the fight. Dislodging a single eye from it's socket also seems to me that it may end the fight...and naturally, other options open up with hurt opponents...the more hurt an opponent is, the more they're open to other stuff.

I never said that any of this stuff is simple, though. It must be done as an opening presents itself and followed up.

Right right?

[Garland]

Hair pulling can help you're BJJ game. Look at Royce in UFC 3 back when they allowed that stuff, it saved his ass against that fucking 'roid freak.

[jubaji]

If you manage to learn how to get the angle right as to not have your teeth hydro-plane over the flesh, and the trick to biting using your incisors to rip through flesh, instead of just hanging on and being a mere annoyance...yeah...I'm pretty sure you could bite open an artery.

How many times have you done that?

Dislodging a single eye from it's socket also seems to me that it may end the fight...

How many times have you done that?

[Garland]

How many times have you done that?



How many times have you done that?

The first one???
Never. How many times have you shattered a joint with a submission move? But you've seen it work, right...? Or it works in theory?
It'll work. I know it'll work...it's good enough for me.

The second one? An aquaintance of mine was assaulted by a guy with a skrewdriver, he responded by sticking his thumb in the guys eye and wrenching the guy to the ground in the scuffle. Popped the guy's eye out of the socket, leaving it hanging by whatever you call that connective tissue and stuff.
but...yeah, you're right, I'VE never done it, so it must not work.

[jubaji]

yeah, you're right, I'VE never done it, so it must not work.

You mean YOU'VE never done it, so relying on something you have never done instead of training things that you know you can do is dumb. Believing that when the things YOU'VE done a thousand times don't work the thing you've never done will, is dumb. That's what you mean.

[jubaji]

How many times have you shattered a joint?

A few times. Not often enough to assume I can do it whenever I want. And I sure as hell don't think I'll just pull it out of my ass if someone has every advantage over me and is giving me a whoppin'.

[jubaji]

An aquaintance of mine was assaulted by a guy with a skrewdriver, he responded by sticking his thumb in the guys eye and wrenching the guy to the ground in the scuffle. Popped the guy's eye out of the socket, leaving it hanging by whatever you call that connective tissue and stuff.

Sounds like your friend had the grappling advantage over that fella when he did that.

[jubaji]

Another valid point. I think you guys agree more than disagree on this one. Experience is king, and if the tried and true stuff that you've trained all your life fails you, then the answer is rarely going to be the technique you've never tried for real or trained in any kind of realistic setting. But then, I don't think you have to be a genius to recognize that stuffing your finger two-knuckles-deep into a bad guy's eye socket will cause him some discomfort, either.

Obviously that doesn't feel good, but if you are face down on the street being completely controlled, its not going to be much of an option, just like if you are standing and haven't managed to land one shot while you've eaten several, "ah, now the throat-strike!" isn't very likely either. The guy controlling the grapple can stick his fingers in your eyes whenever he wants. The guy tagging you every time he throws a punch is the one with the option of striking more difficult targets. etc. etc.