Law and The Martial Artist

[Hardball]

I like the way Excessive force say's, If you gonna use force make it Excessive force. LOL

But seriously though, local, state and Federal laws will penalize you if you "go too far" How far is too far? What techniques or scenarios are protected by the law? If you are jumped by 3 drug crazed thugs, can you break one of their necks with that technique that you learned in Judo? I see it all the time, martial artist hurting someone in self defense situations. Is it really survival of the fittest? Is it kill or be killed? What are your duties as a martial artist? How will you be treated by the first responding police? The courts? Anyone ever think about this? Does anyone really care?

[eXcessiveForce]

Many people only think of the criminal but there is also the civil to worry about.

Dead people make lousy witnesses and really bad plantiffs. So there is a line where you must decide how much force you are prepared to use. Often you are far better off killing them than maiming them for life.

Choked to death, or killed by a blow to the head also reads better than filleted by knife wielding assailent. (sorry knife guys)

Things I believe are

If you must use force you need to follow certain rules to avoid legal hassels.

1. Set the stage ( Hey why did you hit me?) said allowed before you start beating someone to a pulp. People will remember the person hitting you even if they didn't see it, or worse even if a punch wasn't even thrown.

2. Visible marks sway juries. So a chop to the neck that kills someone is better than beating someones face in till they die. Savageness is simply not tolerated well in america.

3. If you use a weapon, they better have a weapon, superior numbers, or a huge difference in size.

4. You never know what happened. This guy attacked me, he just lunged at me and I tried to stop him by punching him at it hit him right in the throat. Then he just fell down.

5. You were just trying to get back home. The whole time you were just trying to get away. Even when you reloaded your 9mm and empty the clip into the guy for the second time.

6. You were afraid, you are not a stone killer, you are a happy little rabbit in a field attacked by a wolf, and your only defense was to gnaw his head off.

Perception perception perception.

Also after an altercation bellowing like an ogre is a good way to get locked up for a long time. People remember celebration and it can take on a blood thristiness if you aren't careful.

[Hardball]

That was a better response than I ever expected.

[Paco]

not bad, but the bit about killing them instead of maiming is not good. That's a murder or manslaughter... quite different from an assault.

There's an old book from Ohara called "The Law and Martial Arts". If you regularly get into or expect to get into trouble, I'd advise you to look thru it.

While I don't currently practice in NY and need to bone up on the NYPL( Penal Law) a few general rules should help:

1- Most if not all states have a duty to retreat rule: that means, if you can do so safely, you should try getting away.

2- Force used in self-defense (or defense of others) has to be proportionate to the threat faced. No, you cannot bust a cap in somebody jus' because he pinched your girl's ass. Of course, many do this, and then wonder why they end up in Rikers or Sing Sing.

3- Ambush, preparation, stalking, arming yourself, setting traps... they are not self-defense. While they make great tactics in guerilla warfare judges don't like the way they look. Remember: the law and reality are divorced in many instances, and street self-defense is one of them.

4- Be careful about the "reasonable person" standard. As a martial artist or such, it's very reasonable to walk around armed. But for a lot of judges, a "reasonable person" would not do that. Ask anybody doing first year law studying torts and they'll tell you that a "reasonable person" is really a pussy.

5- It can be summarized like this: retreat if you can, if not, use only enough to stop the threat. Easier said than done? yes, i know. But just check out the recent case of the knifed bouncer in NYC so you can see what judges think about kerambits and knives...

[Shotokan!]

It's a very difficult situation, you guys have licenses right? Martial art licenses will help to a certain extent i think but other than that you should use the heel of your palsm rather than knuckles to avoid the image of scuffed knuckles.
My friend who does Ninjutsu has been in many instances where he has had to defend himself. He has given me advice to always strike the person in the neck or eyes. Dangerous but effective. Tough, TOUGH situation.

[eXcessiveForce]

In the US there are no licenses for martial arts. I do not know about other parts of the world though

[thescottishdude]

I don't think you should need a license for matial arts as there's more effective ways of killign people. The tale fork and knife set for example. You should need a license for them if you need a license for MA. ..

... Alot of people would have to eat with their hands lol

[GranFire]

Gosh, I love these topics...

You just have to be lucky to live in a more rural area...the law of the land reads more like *SSS* - shoot, shovel, shut up...

I know of more than one person having been told by law enforcement to make sure the invading party is good and dead before calling the cops...they rather deal with only one side of the story...

[RAB]

Paco, hit it on the button. That is the advise, it's not going to change.

Poking a persons eyes out is called mayhem and is equal to life in prison. Hitting a person with the palm won't cut it either. If you push someone and they felt and hit their hit on a curb that cause death...you will be charge for result of what you caused such as involuntary manslaughter. Moreover, knives have stiffer laws than guns. Even if you are not prosecuted crimally, you still have to survive civil charges. Fighting is not fare in the U.S.A. and there is a good chance that someone is going to die or good to jail. Even if you are super wealthy and can buy your way out it's going to cost you.

I used to dream of being Kwi Chang Cane from the 70's show Kung fu, were he would avoid trouble and beg not to fight right before he kick the crap out of someone. Yes, that is Hollywood. Most people really will leave you alone if you just know some self-de-mouth defense.

[Hikage]

To piggy-back on the above lawyer's post, here's how the law works in PA (TBOMK)

There are different levels. The bottom line is, you are allowed to elevate to the level of your assailant, but you cannot advance to the next level before s/he does.

Eye Contact: This is someone staring at you and possibly making ugly faces. You are allowed to make the nastiest face back, but this is all.

Name Calling: Self-explanatory

Light Contact: There is a name for this, but I forgot it. This is when the pushing starts. Again, you can push him back, one time for every time s/he pushes you, but no more and you can't necessarily push him into anything that would cause harm (i.e. that low-hanging pipe s/he so stupidly stood in front of.)

At this point, all the aforementioned levels are only misdemeanors. From here, you could find youself in jail.

Simple assault: S/He punches you, you can punch him/her back, punch for punch, technique for technique. However, before you continue, you must perform some kind of retreat. This can be as simple as one step backwards while blocking. But you need to make an attempt to leave the situation.

Aggravated assault: There is a point I suppose where people loose count of attacks and it become aggravated assault. At this point, it's pretty much in full brawl mode and you are allowed to defend your right to avoid bodily harm and you can attack at will, without causing extensive or permament damage.

Assault with a deadly weapon: This would be when someone is attacking you with a weapon that is potentially lethal. However, we need to be careful. Simply brandishing a knife does not legally mean that your life is in danger and you are not allowed to kill your opponent at this point. They need to have actually sliced at you first. Whereas a gun in instantly lethal, we do not need to be shot at before we defend.

Bear in mind, if you use a knife to defend yourself, you are going to need to explain why you were carrying a knife. You would be well off to carry a more innocent-looking weapon, such as a small stick attached to your key chain. Personally, I carry a mini-mag on the end of my keys. Also, I have a lengthy lanyard (rope) on the keys that is nothinig more than an advertisement for the school I work at. This gives me multiple weapons that are carried on every day people.

There is one instance when you are allowed to jump to a level where your opponent has not yet proceeded and that is in even of a kidnapping. There is not idea of what the intent is, and if necesary, you may kill to free yourself.

Again, I insist that I am not a lawyer and this explanation is as best as I remember it being explained to me.

-Hikage

[tkd_wrestler]

first of all avoid the fight. if someone gives you a nasty look ignore it but keep an eye out for them. if they push you try to talk your way out. if that doesn't work and they start to attack you then you can beat him up or just kick 'em in the nuts or give them a punch to the solerplexus. you just want to give yourself time to get away but don't cause them serious harm. if it comes down to a life and death situation that's when you can cause serious injury or kill if necessary but killing should always be a last resort.

[cloud72]

i see this too.now im not sure what criteria one must meet to take self defence,but,one would think that no matter what experince one has,no art or a master of say tae kwon do ,if anyone is to have a event insuch to protect them selfs,one should do it in the most efective way at there ability

[thesnake]

and if sum guy comes up and pushes u dont beat him to a bloody pulp go w/ the idea "an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth" its a saying for a reason

[Hardball]

To piggy-back on the above lawyer's post, here's how the law works in PA (TBOMK)

There are different levels. The bottom line is, you are allowed to elevate to the level of your assailant, but you cannot advance to the next level before s/he does.

Eye Contact: This is someone staring at you and possibly making ugly faces. You are allowed to make the nastiest face back, but this is all.

Name Calling: Self-explanatory

Light Contact: There is a name for this, but I forgot it. This is when the pushing starts. Again, you can push him back, one time for every time s/he pushes you, but no more and you can't necessarily push him into anything that would cause harm (i.e. that low-hanging pipe s/he so stupidly stood in front of.)

At this point, all the aforementioned levels are only misdemeanors. From here, you could find youself in jail.

Simple assault: S/He punches you, you can punch him/her back, punch for punch, technique for technique. However, before you continue, you must perform some kind of retreat. This can be as simple as one step backwards while blocking. But you need to make an attempt to leave the situation.

Aggravated assault: There is a point I suppose where people loose count of attacks and it become aggravated assault. At this point, it's pretty much in full brawl mode and you are allowed to defend your right to avoid bodily harm and you can attack at will, without causing extensive or permament damage.

Assault with a deadly weapon: This would be when someone is attacking you with a weapon that is potentially lethal. However, we need to be careful. Simply brandishing a knife does not legally mean that your life is in danger and you are not allowed to kill your opponent at this point. They need to have actually sliced at you first. Whereas a gun in instantly lethal, we do not need to be shot at before we defend.

Bear in mind, if you use a knife to defend yourself, you are going to need to explain why you were carrying a knife. You would be well off to carry a more innocent-looking weapon, such as a small stick attached to your key chain. Personally, I carry a mini-mag on the end of my keys. Also, I have a lengthy lanyard (rope) on the keys that is nothinig more than an advertisement for the school I work at. This gives me multiple weapons that are carried on every day people.

There is one instance when you are allowed to jump to a level where your opponent has not yet proceeded and that is in even of a kidnapping. There is not idea of what the intent is, and if necesary, you may kill to free yourself.

Again, I insist that I am not a lawyer and this explanation is as best as I remember it being explained to me.

-Hikage

Funny post, now counselor could you please go over these scenarios when there is 5 or more assailants.

[eXcessiveForce]

One thing,

The law isn't about what happened, it's about about what they can get a jury to believe happened. This is a big difference.

Granny may blow a guys head off with a shotgun, but she's gonna have trouble getting convicted if the guy looked like a badass