Ju-Jitsu

[Dan_The_Man]

Hi there,
I am looking to get into a new Martial art that has an emphasis on self defence rather than in-the-ring sport fighting. I’m not particularly interested in fighting on the street but want to commit to and learn an art that may help me fight for my life if that terrible time may ever occur. By self-defence I mean training for real life situations e.g. facing more than one opponent, how to defend against and use very harmful strikes such as to the eyes, throat etc, dealing with knives…

I live very close to a dojo that practices Japanese Ju-Jitsu and I have heard that this art might be close to what I’m looking for.

I have trained for a year in Wing-Chun and although I thought some of the techniques were very good I felt like we were bogged down slightly with forms and chain punches. Also there isn’t anywhere near enough emphasis on sparring.

I have also recently attended a few Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu classes at a Carlson Gracie gym that also teaches Muay Thai and MMA. I found these tough but fun and effective. The fact that 50% of the class was sparring was great. Being able to fight a fully resisting opponent at full force seemed very practical and realistic. But my main problem with this style is that all the techniques were fighting from on the ground. I would like to learn joint locks and throws but would prefer to learn techniques that would emphasise the importance of staying on your feet in highly dangerous situations, (obviously I would want to learn ground fighting too but would rather have that emphasis on staying standing like in self-defence). Whilst I was at these BJJ classes I asked a few people about Japanese Ju-Jitsu and the ones who have experience some JJJ classes said that the quality was less consistent and that some Dojos didn’t teach very good technique (Just like what a lot of you would say about Wing-Chun on this forum)

The dojo I am looking at is called Bu-Sen and is the base of The United Kingdom Seiki-Juku Karate Organisation. It was founded and is run by Sensei Frank Perry 7th Dan, Chief Instructor who is assisted by Sensei Carol David 5th Dan and Assistant Chief Instructor. I am planning to go and try out a class next week but could do with a few tips on what to look out for.

To sum up (this is quite a long and unorganised post):

I want to start a martial art that teaches effective self-defence,
I have studied Wing-Chun but want an art that has more emphasis on sparring,
I have briefly tried BJJ but found it too focused on being on the floor,


This post basically comes down to the choice between learning JJJ at the Bu-Sen
(Which also teaches Karate and Judo)
Or,
Learn BJJ and Muay Thai and possibly MMA at the Carlson Gracie Gym.

Any of your thoughts or advice would be great.

Dan.

[Hardball]

I find JJJ to be all that you are looking for. Give it a trial run, if you don't like it go back to BJJ and MT.

[Tant01]

If I've typed it once...

REAL Kodokan Judo holds all the very best of the old Jujutsu ru ha.

BJJ is Judo (newaza)

[Hardball]

Most Kodokan Judo is missing the punches, kicks and small joint manipulations that you find in JJJ.

[Tant01]

Most Kodokan Judo is missing the punches, kicks and small joint manipulations that you find in JJJ.

You're right, of course. He may be hard pressed to find instruction in (judo) Atemi waza. I didn't say it would be easy...

[Dan_The_Man]

Just to clarify, JJJ is made up of Judo Newaza (the ground fighting part of jujitsu that makes up BJJ) and Judo Atemi Waza (the strikes). What else?

Also, has anyone heard of the Bu-Sen or the instructors that teach there? How will i know if they are teaching "the good stuff" or "ru ha" as Tant01 put it.

cheers.

[Tant01]

To Clarify...

Just to clarify, JJJ is made up of Judo Newaza (the ground fighting part of jujitsu that makes up BJJ) and Judo Atemi Waza (the strikes). What else?

Also, has anyone heard of the Bu-Sen or the instructors that teach there? How will i know if they are teaching "the good stuff" or "ru ha" as Tant01 put it.

cheers.

You sorta got it backwards... JUDO (newaza, tachiwaza and atemi) is from JJJ... BJJ is from Judo (newaza)

Newer JJJ is primarily judo. Few (if any) have ACTUAL lineage to old JJJ...

[Uke]

If I've typed it once...

REAL Kodokan Judo holds all the very best of the old Jujutsu ru ha.

BJJ is Judo (newaza)

Here's another misinforming lie.

Judo:

Judo is comprised of techniques that rely on unbalancing(kuzushi) and fulcrum based leverage. Judo PURPOSELY had the joint manipulation and therefore the momentum based techniques removed by Kano when he created his Kodokan syllabus so that people wouldn't fear getting injured while participating in randori.

Judo was NOT meant as system of true combat, and that's clear as the development of judo only came about once the Feudal era had ended. The need to perform techniques realistically came about and randori became the answer. All of the brutal and maiming techniques found throughout the various styles of jujitsu were REMOVED from Kano's judo.

"REAL" Kodokan Judo is a watered down version of a wartime art that was formulated without the intention of killing, but achieving the throw. Anybody worth their own judo gi knows this as the only real contribution that Kodokan Judo offered to the world was randori and a colored belt system.

"REAL" Kodokan Judo removed the bone crushing and snapping techniques found in other jujitsu arts like Daito Ryu. Look for blending techniques that use joint manipulation(wrist/ elbow/shoulder) and momentum for throws and you'll be looking for a lifetime. Those were the wartime applications of jujitsu based on the sword, not pajama wearing randori where you were basically assured that you wouldn't get hurt if you slapped out.

"REAL" Kodokan Judo before it became watered down in order to become an Olympic sport was so focused on newaza (due to Kano and his students getting dominated by a rival jujitsu school) that tachiwaza had been neglected for years in favor of ground fighting.


Newaza:

Kano wasn't even the first man to use the name judo to describe his art.

Kano wasn't the first man to make use of or widely introduce the concept of kuzushi.

Kano's judo isn't the source of newaza techniques. Only the poorly educated or short sighted cite Judo as the first to make use of or even perfect newaza.

The Fusen Ryu school of jujitsu specialized in newaza and challenged Kano and his school to a match. Kano's school handily defeated the Fusen Ryu school when using tachiwaza or standing and throwing techniques. So, the Fusen Ryu school switched to using newaza techniques mid-competition and beat every single member of Kano's school including Kano himself. Kano's students expressed a desire to learn newaza after that competition and so Kano invited Tanabe sensei, who was the head of the Fusen Ryu school, to teach newaza techniques which Kano eventually included in his original version of Kodokan judo. Kano eventually changed the curriculum to exclude newaza because he realized that his students began focusing on fighting on the ground because it was easy instead of where he felt the real skill lied: In achieving the throw.

Just because someone can steal something or make it famous doesn't make them innovative. And just because someone writes on a board that "Judo is everything that jujitsu was" doesn't make them knowledgeable, it just means that they, like usual, like to profess about things that they clearly don't know about.

Judo schools in America aren't the place to go looking for effective and complete self defense, Dan_The _Man. There's a lot to be learned there, but you don't go to the Metropolitan Opera to learn about dog fights in the alleyways. Its that plain and simple.

[Dan_The_Man]

Hi Uke, Thanks for your post.

Just FYI I am living in London, not America.

So what would you suggest to be the best means of self defence?

I am currently training at the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Gym in BJJ, Muay Thai and I am going to start Judo soon. I think that these styles are helpful because they all have a focus on sparring which is essential to becoming an effective fighter (something that i lacked when training Kung Fu).

Personally, I would like to train in something that addresses how to face multiple opponents, weapons etc; things you will encounter on the street. I would also like to do something that has a lot of standing joint manipulation and locks rather than all on the floor as in BJJ. Are there any styles that are basically BJJ but standing?

Thanks.

[jubaji]

Judo schools in America aren't the place to go looking for effective and complete self defense, Dan_The _Man. There's a lot to be learned there, but you don't go to the Metropolitan Opera to learn about dog fights in the alleyways. Its that plain and simple.

.................................

[kanik]

Yeah, sport combat sucks ass. Its too restricted, no headbutts is a huge downfall. But then again, self defence is pretty boring too. Why not just find one good awesome kickass martial art (traditional jujitsu for example is fine, but BJJ on the other hand *shakes fist*), stick with it, and when you have developed a strong base, then branch out and try new things while continuing your persuite in your original martial art. You said you've done wing chun? Then keep up the wing chun, its a good art. Decide what you want as a primary and a secondary art, and after you are proficient in them both, then you can think about learning other things. I beleive that is what makes the best martial artist.

Also, a note on forms. They arent as useless as people think, they train key techniques needed to be proficient in fighting, and in my oppinion, sparring shouldnt be done unless you have the techniques down first, and then it should fall more into drills than sparring. Free sparring should be done with minimum protective gear, and a decent a,mount of contact. But the fall back to free sparring is the same as the fallback to sport combat. Too many rules and restrictions, so in order to elarn real self defence, all you really have are the drills.... Unless your prepared to get out there "in the real world" as people always love to call it, and kick some ass as training.

[jubaji]

(traditional jujitsu for example is fine, but BJJ on the other hand *shakes fist*),.

Why are you shaking your fist?

[kanik]

Why are you shaking your fist?

Coz I have a negative, heavily biased oppinion on BJJ, and mainstream MMA in general. But thats just me, and I dont expect everyone else to think the same.

[jubaji]

Oh ok, why?

[kanik]

Oh ok, why?

I think its fun, and its good exercise, and everyone should have at least some knowledge on grappling if they wanna be a good fighter. But personally, grappling isnt for me, as I prefer stand-up fighting, and if somone does decide to try take me to the ground, it more often then not, hurts them more than me.