Karate - The Weakest Link ?

[darrianation]

karate today is different then the past. What was one time called karate jutsu is no called karate do. Jutsu was practiced to a higher degree of self defence. Do is preserves and cultivates. As time did change Guns took the place of the sword. The hand to hand or hand to sword defence reduced. But one cloud and people do train Karate to fight. Just as any moderen art does. You just have to make it meet your needs. Stances were set also for the ground type. low wide stance was used more for hilly and uneven ground. High stances for the more flat areas. To understand more of Karate you must go back to when it was not called that. But say Na Ha Te or Shuri Te. In the Okinawian area. Karte took its name when it was introduced to Japan. The Japanies people did not want the art to show relations to China. So said it would be called Kara Te. Japan had the Bushi arts Jujitsu Bo jutsu. Even ninjutsu. But Not what is now called Karate. Which did have roots to China. Not defending or debating if it works. Because only the person can make it work.

Lets go back in time a ways and look at the evolution of karate. I think most of us will agree that karate was developed out of necessity. Okinawa is perfectly situated east of China, south of Japan and north of Taiwan. It was a major crossroad for trading between Japan, China, and other Southeast Asian and indo China countries and an important resting port for sailors.

These associations with traders from all over Asia especially china also brought people with knowledge of martial arts. The Okinawans combined these martial arts with their own indigenous fighting arts (Te, Okinawa Te) to create what we now call karate. We must assume that these were somewhat effective because they had survived for so long.

However because of the ban against martial arts placed on the Okinawans by king Shohasi in the 1400’s and the continued ban on weapons by the Japanese Satsuma clan in the 1600’s we know very little about the practice and use of martial arts during these periods. Karate was practiced in secret and passed down from teacher to student and through oral tradition with little ever being written.

Karate being practiced in secret has lent to its mysticism, and some would say its exaggeration and misconception. During the beginning of the Meiji period in the late 1800’s karate began coming out of the closet. Impressive demonstrations were being held in Okinawa around the turn of the century. Japanese dignitaries saw some of these and were very impressed. The word spread throughout Okinawa and mainland Japan about these great karate masters. One of these great masters Gichin Funakoshi was asked to come to Japan and he give the first public demonstration of karate in Japan in 1917.

Now with karate out of the closet and into the light it gained acceptance and ultimately it was assimilated into society, and was changed forever. In the early 1900’s karate became part of the public education system exercise curriculum in the elementary schools, and changes had to be made to make it safer for children. A little later it was introduced to the universities and became popular as a sport. Again changes had to be made to it to make it safe for competitors and rules added to allow scoring and judging, further separating karate from its combat roots.

Today we find karate still steeped in tradition but practiced more like a sport or dance than a combat system. Some will even argue that karate isn’t for combat at all but meant to be nothing more than a fitness routine like Tae-Bo. It also has refused to change much along with our modern understanding of science, or how we understand the anatomy or science of self-defense. So today we find most traditional martial arts just that, traditional based not science based. Karate has become half elementary school exercise and half sport. Neither will do you much good against a hardened thug hell bent on bashing your brains out.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

This is the reason the Samurai are no more, they refused to change with the new more effective ways of fighting and they died out

So the fact that Japan stopped being fudal and the samurai were no longer allowed to carry swords had nothing to do with it?

Don't know if the okinawans had the same fair play spirit as the japanese, I think they would throw a hand of sand in your eyes to get the upper hand
I'm talking about the 19th century okinawans not presentday, now they are influenced to much by the japanese spirit

There might still be a few small styles/school (is the same in this case) that stil use the old spelling for karate and that weren't influenced by the japanese, they don't have the class do all the same, instruction is more individual, no walking up and down

Karate is not a budo or bujitsu, it was never meant for the battlefield like kenjitsu, it was meant as a civil selfdefence method

Has it ever been effective, I like to think so but against a limited kind of oponent, 19th century boxing isn't anything near presentday boxing, they, like the judoka and jujitsuka never heard about karate before
ju jitsu's striking ability was only good in a few ryu
Now we know so much more and seem most variations and try to adapt to it
the faster you adapt, the longer you last, your reign is over


Darn should look further before I post
the second Sho king banned Weapons in 1477 can't find anything on Martial arts in general being banned but apart from that karate wasn't considered a martial art same as after WW II the US banned the practice of MA but allowed karate
But it seems the ban on weapons drove them underground anyway mayby because these MA did have weapons, the chinese MA that was practiced had them probably Ti had them too
Maybe that's the reason why only the unarmed stuff survived
The weapon arts ko bujitsu from the Taira school are a collection of forms Taira managed to track, they had never been part of one school before

[brokenelbow]

Other things that is useless, or impractical
1) Kata
2) Punching/kicking thin air
3) Light contact
4) Sparring like it is a game of tag
5) Some blocks
6) Self-defense practice with cooperative partners
7) Atmosphere in the dojo

The list goes on and on.

Outside of kata you listed things that are not intrinsic to karate. Outside of kata which isn't a major focus of my training we don't punch air, contact is determined by experience and how good the partners can each take a hit, sparring is short with the idea of ending things quick, self defense practice is free form and tied directly into the sparring, and the dojo is informal.

Karate, has never been static but has constantly changed in some ways for the better and in some ways for the worse. Karate is made up of many ryu with many ideas on how to punch, kick, use footwork, locks and the list goes on. To associate all karate with the kinds of things you described is like associating Muay Thai with kickboxercise.

Sorry darrian but your brief history of karate also leaves out alot and buys into some of the myths. What we call Shotokan differs from what Yoshitaka Funakoshi taught to what Egami taught to what Nakayama taught to what Oshima taught to what Kimura taught the list goes on.

[darrianation]

So the fact that Japan stopped being fudal and the samurai were no longer allowed to carry swords had nothing to do with it?

Don't know if the okinawans had the same fair play spirit as the japanese, I think they would throw a hand of sand in your eyes to get the upper hand
I'm talking about the 19th century okinawans not presentday, now they are influenced to much by the japanese spirit

There might still be a few small styles/school (is the same in this case) that stil use the old spelling for karate and that weren't influenced by the japanese, they don't have the class do all the same, instruction is more individual, no walking up and down

Karate is not a budo or bujitsu, it was never meant for the battlefield like kenjitsu, it was meant as a civil selfdefence method

Has it ever been effective, I like to think so but against a limited kind of oponent, 19th century boxing isn't anything near presentday boxing, they, like the judoka and jujitsuka never heard about karate before
ju jitsu's striking ability was only good in a few ryu
Now we know so much more and seem most variations and try to adapt to it
the faster you adapt, the longer you last, your reign is over


Darn should look further before I post
the second Sho king banned Weapons in 1477 can't find anything on Martial arts in general being banned but apart from that karate wasn't considered a martial art same as after WW II the US banned the practice of MA but allowed karate
But it seems the ban on weapons drove them underground anyway mayby because these MA did have weapons, the chinese MA that was practiced had them probably Ti had them too
Maybe that's the reason why only the unarmed stuff survived
The weapon arts ko bujitsu from the Taira school are a collection of forms Taira managed to track, they had never been part of one school before

"So the fact that Japan stopped being fudal and the samurai were no longer allowed to carry swords had nothing to do with it?"

C’mon we both know that the demise of the samurai is far deeper and complex then they simply refused to change. The end of the feudal period probably had the most to do with it.

"Don't know if the okinawans had the same fair play spirit as the japanese, I think they would throw a hand of sand in your eyes to get the upper hand
I'm talking about the 19th century okinawans not presentday, now they are influenced to much by the japanese spirit"

Your right about the okinawans (sp?) didn’t have the same Warrior code as the Japanese but when it comes to modern Karate Japan has had the most influence. If someone knew the older assumably more effective Karate or Okinawa Te or whatever then where is it and why aren’t we talking about it. Does it exist? Where? Then we can make judgments on it’s effectiveness in street fighting.

The point I was making is it has been watered down over the years through it’s changes (yes changes, not static) but it has taken the path opposite of true combat and towards exercise and sport and has lost it effectiveness as a combat system not because the techniques have changed but the focus and emphasis has changed, and we don’t know how to get back.

Not to mention that Karate has relied for so many years on science that is a hundreds of years old. Sport science, bio physics, kinesiology, exercise physiology is a relatively new science and has proven most of the old out dated training methods still used in a lot of karate schools to this day are not built upon sound scientific principles. Now there are exceptions to this rule but in most traditional systems this is the case.

[brokenelbow]

The point I was making is it has been watered down over the years through it’s changes (yes changes, not static) but it has taken the path opposite of true combat and towards exercise and sport and has lost it effectiveness as a combat system not because the techniques have changed but the focus and emphasis has changed, and we don’t know how to get back.

Maybe you don't but there are karateka who train and use various styles of karate as a combative system, even Shotokan can be applied as a combative. You won't find that kind of training in the local store front mcdojo or the super slick training centers with 1,000 students, but they're out there. Nothing mysterious about why the old training is hard to find, it's just not popular with the average person wanting to learn "karate".

[darrianation]

Maybe you don't but there are karateka who train and use various styles of karate as a combative system, even Shotokan can be applied as a combative. You won't find that kind of training in the local store front mcdojo or the super slick training centers with 1,000 students, but they're out there. Nothing mysterious about why the old training is hard to find, it's just not popular with the average person wanting to learn "karate".

Look don't get me wrong I like Karate and it has a lot of marit, but when it comes to self-defense there are better systems out there. The non-tradititional systems like JKD, Krav Maga, CFA, ETC diffenantly have Karate as well as most other traditional MAs beat when it comes to SD. I say most because I don't know all traditional MAs.

[darrianation]

Nothing mysterious about why the old training is hard to find, it's just not popular with the average person wanting to learn "karate".

Got to agree with you there! I think it was Toudiyama[NL] that said it once before also that "the average joe really doesn't want to learn real self-defense" once he/ she learns how hard the training really is. So they go where its much easier to the five and dime dojo.

[darrianation]

Got to agree with you there! I think it was Toudiyama[NL] that said it once before also that "the average joe really doesn't want to learn real self-defense" once he/ she learns how hard the training really is. So they go where its much easier to the five and dime dojo.

By the way I jest want to clarify that wasn't an exact quote by Toudiyama but that is the just of what he said.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

By the way I jest want to clarify that wasn't an exact quote by Toudiyama but that is the just of what he said.

I was already starting to doubt my memory, but this fixed it
Yup most start just for fun, the same reason for other SPORTS

BTW not kicking a downed oponent, this is something I wouldn't have done before I started Karate and lasted until I started teaching myself

What I also said was that people that want to learn SD actually do not like to fight, a lot of sparring will put them off
Contactsparring is very practical for the ring,for selfdefence it doesn't add much to the ability of the people using it, these guy could beat most people even without any martial arts training
But if you start it for selfdefence because you are afraid of being hit, you aren't going ro like contactsparring will you?

MARTIAL arts <> SELF defence, either it takes to long or isn't so much defence as it is offencive ( or don't spend any time on SD specific situations)

Buy a gun, teargas or pepperspray or whatever weapon is allowed, if that isn't allowed buy a very load mini siren ( or whatever they are called) to scare attackers but don't spend time being busy with what you try to avoid in real life

To much bleeding time is spend on basics, in traditional karate 1/3 of the time, now if they would vary from this stupid up and down, walking which is good for white belt to learn it a bit
for instance starting from a sidefacing stance like the backstance just to force the use of the hips or working with partners with kickingshield
Or make up excercises that force the body to move as it should in a practical situation because the walking up and down doesn't do that, it only lays the foundation

BTW
IT seems early karatematches were rather more violent, lowkicks were aa part of it, a lot of physical damaage though, as a result over time they changed the way matches are held ( which isn't the same as changing the art) and it turned into Tag karate
The duch actually liked a bit more contact and and from that touch skin was allowed to the face but it keeps changing and if I watch it now I think I'm watching 2 TKD people that happen to use their hands too, same bloody hopping up and down with both feet at the same time, isn't anybody capable of sweeping and attacking anymore?

[darrianation]

I was already starting to doubt my memory, but this fixed it
Yup most start just for fun, the same reason for other SPORTS

BTW not kicking a downed oponent, this is something I wouldn't have done before I started Karate and lasted until I started teaching myself

What I also said was that people that want to learn SD actually do not like to fight, a lot of sparring will put them off
Contactsparring is very practical for the ring,for selfdefence it doesn't add much to the ability of the people using it, these guy could beat most people even without any martial arts training
But if you start it for selfdefence because you are afraid of being hit, you aren't going ro like contactsparring will you?

MARTIAL arts <> SELF defence, either it takes to long or isn't so much defence as it is offencive ( or don't spend any time on SD specific situations)

Buy a gun, teargas or pepperspray or whatever weapon is allowed, if that isn't allowed buy a very load mini siren ( or whatever they are called) to scare attackers but don't spend time being busy with what you try to avoid in real life

To much bleeding time is spend on basics, in traditional karate 1/3 of the time, now if they would vary from this stupid up and down, walking which is good for white belt to learn it a bit
for instance starting from a sidefacing stance like the backstance just to force the use of the hips or working with partners with kickingshield
Or make up excercises that force the body to move as it should in a practical situation because the walking up and down doesn't do that, it only lays the foundation

BTW
IT seems early karatematches were rather more violent, lowkicks were aa part of it, a lot of physical damaage though, as a result over time they changed the way matches are held ( which isn't the same as changing the art) and it turned into Tag karate
The duch actually liked a bit more contact and and from that touch skin was allowed to the face but it keeps changing and if I watch it now I think I'm watching 2 TKD people that happen to use their hands too, same bloody hopping up and down with both feet at the same time, isn't anybody capable of sweeping and attacking anymore?

Yea I think Rorion Gracie who once said in a interview when asked what technique he would use if someone broke into his house? He responded by saying "My 44Mag"!

[darrianation]

Buy a gun, teargas or pepperspray or whatever weapon is allowed, if that isn't allowed buy a very load mini siren ( or whatever they are called) to scare attackers but don't spend time being busy with what you try to avoid in real life

Yea you have a point here. Real self-defense shouldn't always depend on your fists, but in some parts of the country carrying guns, knives, even pepper spray is illegal. Also you wouldn't want to shoot someone just because he shoved you either.

To much bleeding time is spend on basics, in traditional karate 1/3 of the time, now if they would vary from this stupid up and down, walking which is good for white belt to learn it a bit
for instance starting from a sidefacing stance like the backstance just to force the use of the hips or working with partners with kickingshield
Or make up excercises that force the body to move as it should in a practical situation because the walking up and down doesn't do that, it only lays the foundation

I think this would be good but I would take it a step further:
1) Warm-ups and stretches
2) Calisthenics
3) Partner drills
4) Pad/bag work
5) Sparring drills
6) situational sparring (self-defense)
7) free sparring
8) cool down and stretch

* Also working on realistic scenario training at least once or twice a month.

BTW
IT seems early karatematches were rather more violent, lowkicks were aa part of it, a lot of physical damaage though, as a result over time they changed the way matches are held ( which isn't the same as changing the art) and it turned into Tag karate
The duch actually liked a bit more contact and and from that touch skin was allowed to the face but it keeps changing and if I watch it now I think I'm watching 2 TKD people that happen to use their hands too, same bloody hopping up and down with both feet at the same time, isn't anybody capable of sweeping and attacking anymore?

Even when I was young (teenager) leg sweeps were allowed in tournaments but not anymore.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Yea you have a point here. Real self-defense shouldn't always depend on your fists, but in some parts of the country carrying guns, knives, even pepper spray is illegal. Also you wouldn't want to shoot someone just because he shoved you either.



I think this would be good but I would take it a step further:
1) Warm-ups and stretches
2) Calisthenics
3) Partner drills
4) Pad/bag work
5) Sparring drills
6) situational sparring (self-defense)
7) free sparring
8) cool down and stretch

* Also working on realistic scenario training at least once or twice a month.



Even when I was young (teenager) leg sweeps were allowed in tournaments but not anymore.

My Problem, teaching at a club that is member of the karate assoc and me teaching Wado, I somehow had to stick to but still vary enough
But I often skipped the traditional basictraining completely and training looked a lot like you discribed
I did do Kata, but to little and then even I would incorporate partner drills in it using bunkai

As for realistic scenario'training......I have been in very few situations and the same is true for my teachers, there wasn't much streetviolence in my country
It is now but the way that is happening, there are no scenario trainings that will help
A teenager that walks up to his former schoolteacher ( he wasn't attending that school anymore) points a gun and shoots
Animal rights activist walks upto rightwing politician points a gun and shoots 3x
If someone wants to shoot you, he will, if he wants to rob you it's different, I just give him the 20 euro that is the max I have on me, it's not worth the risk


Sweeping not allowed, are we talking WKF formaly known as WUKO?

[darrianation]

My Problem, teaching at a club that is member of the karate assoc and me teaching Wado, I somehow had to stick to but still vary enough
But I often skipped the traditional basictraining completely and training looked a lot like you discribed
I did do Kata, but to little and then even I would incorporate partner drills in it using bunkai

Yea teaching by other peoples rules and their conditions would be a real spoiler for me!

I forgot to add kata but then again kata I think is the most useless thing in karate.

As for realistic scenario'training......I have been in very few situations and the same is true for my teachers, there wasn't much streetviolence in my country
It is now but the way that is happening, there are no scenario trainings that will help
A teenager that walks up to his former schoolteacher ( he wasn't attending that school anymore) points a gun and shoots
Animal rights activist walks upto rightwing politician points a gun and shoots 3x
If someone wants to shoot you, he will, if he wants to rob you it's different, I just give him the 20 euro that is the max I have on me, it's not worth the risk

You cannot prepare people for this type of severe sudden ambush, not even years in the military can prepare you for this. Even if you were armed with a firearm you would not be able to draw and shoot fast enough.

However realistic scenario training is a very valid way to teach adrenalin response, fear control as well as awareness, avoidance, verbal de-escalation as well as putting your techniques to the test. Thus you need good realistic scripts, props and actors and you role play with mostly likely scenarios.

1) Dark parking lots (what to look for, assess threat level, attack, etc)
2) Bars (bar fights with emphasis on verbal de-escalation, escape, and fighting)
3) Sitting in your car and attacked through window open door, etc

*the list of scenarios goes on.

There are many things that can be done. Fighting doesn’t always have to be the major point of scenarios, you can practice how to cooperate with a robbery, how to make a good witness for the police, how to use self-defense so you won't be the one going to jail, and etc.

So you see scenarios are very good! Sometimes self-defense is being able to keep from being targeted as a victim and or other means of avoidance.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Dar:

I understand they are valuable but wanted to point out that I probably don't know very much about it

what I did tell them is it might be best not to take a guard posture because that will tell your oponent you are tained in something and might even know what, instead stay neutral and be prepared to attack very fast

I also hammered in to their heads that a real fight is nothing like sparring, not in the least because the adrenaline rush is much much higher

What karate did do for me is build my confidence and somehow this did show, why else would a guy whose fightingskills scared the shit out of guys much bigger than me, threaten me saying, : "And you too, don't think I'm scared of you, you can't do anything against a .45"
An experienced Pentjak Silat fighter that scares a bunch of tough guys but feels the need to threaten with the use a gun ( without having a gun on him at the time) ....man II scare people without showing them anything
You can imagine how this build my confidence even more

Again my country never was that violent, the closest to a fight I have come the last 10 years was someone standing at a traficlight and one of the passengers calling me a faggot and me calling him out, they stopped 150 yards away and stepped out, I rufuse to go to them but invited them to come to me, if I go to them and beat the shit out of them, I'm in big trouble because I went for the fight, if they come to me, I can kick the shit out of them without me being charged for it

[darrianation]

I understand they are valuable but wanted to point out that I probably don't know very much about it

Scenarios if done correctly can give the participant a realistic feel to it that gives him/her vital and realistic feedback. It should elicit and stimulate all or most of the senses. The more senses stimulated the more effect the simulation will have on your memory storage. Your sub conscious brain will remember it as if it really happened even though your conscious brain knows it was make believe. Also a by-product of this is that your neuro-motor memorization is increased, and learned at a faster rate than doing regular repetitive drills making it so you get more for less (however this doesn’t totally replace practicing drills/techniques in repetition).

The senses that can be stimulated

1) Sight
2) Sound
3) Touch
4) Smell
5) Taste

*Mental/psychological senses: fear, anxiety.
* Other physiologic states: adrenaline.

To do this you need to have actors (could be students from the class or personal friends or quests), Props (for a bar scene it could be card tables, liquor bottles, Break away class for fighting/cutting, stereo, pool cue, etc), and a good script to follow.

Lets say you are going to’ do a bar scene have the actors dressed appropriately (like bikers for example), Place some Whiskey on the clothing to simulate drunken breath, have a table set up for the actors and the target to sit and talk, have music blazing in the background, Turn the lights down, etc. Then the attacker starts in with his mouth (or whatever), makes contact with the target, postures, moves closer, etc. The attacker can use a breakaway bottle or a pool cue or any other item or just his fists to attack with.

The target can learn to recognize the danger (threat assessment, situational awareness) and to recognize the different signs that someone may attack. The target may try verbal de-escalation, and or other avoidance techniques, then he may have to fight based on the script and go up against an uncooperative attacker.

This uses all the skills that the defender should known and reinforces them through realism. He also learns to adapt to changing situations. All or most of his senses are stimulated and he learns to perform self-defense tasks in a near virtual environment.

*Remember you can go on lactation use parking lots to simulate crimes in a parking lot, you can go to the park, you can practice after dark outside somewhere to simulate low light conditions and these scenarios should be done in civilian clothes wear shoes, shirt and pants that are appropriate for the time of year and environment.

Depending on the money and recourses you have you can get quit elaborate but even on a small budget you can still be very creative and realistic.

I also hammered in to their heads that a real fight is nothing like sparring, not in the least because the adrenaline rush is much much higher

So do you think sparring can help develop valuable skills that can be used in SD?

What karate did do for me is build my confidence and somehow this did show, why else would a guy whose fightingskills scared the shit out of guys much bigger than me, threaten me saying, : "And you too, don't think I'm scared of you, you can't do anything against a .45"
An experienced Pentjak Silat fighter that scares a bunch of tough guys but feels the need to threaten with the use a gun ( without having a gun on him at the time) ....man II scare people without showing them anything
You can imagine how this build my confidence even more

Also I totally believe in the right to be carry firearms (don’t want to start a political debate on this issue) and I believe people should have training with ‘em
1) Safety
2) Marksmanship
3) Legal use (use of force)
4) Concealed carry
5) Self-defense (tactical training).

In the United States unfortunately many criminals have guns and most of our gun laws seem to restrict or inhibit the law-abiding citizen and not the criminal. The gun issue is a totally different debate I’m’ not trying to start anything here.

Firearm training is a very valuable training tool however there are many times it does not apply.

1) Bars (drinking and firearms do not mix)
2) Areas where firearms are illegal
3) If you are working a job where you are not allowed to carry firearms like a bouncer and some security positions
4) Times when lethal force is not warranted

*Yes firearms are superior to MA training but they don’t apply to all self-defense situations.

*Pepper spray is good I recommend them, but they won’t be effective on everyone. Also there are parts of the country (U.S.) where this is even illegal.

*Knives are a very good weapon, easy to conceal and deadly, but you still have to remember use of force issues.

I think if you are serious about self-defense you should get all of the above training (where it’s legal) Empty hand training, Knife training, Stick training, improvised/ hasty weapons training, and firearm training.

However with any SD training it needs to be based on solid realistic and practical science based methodologies to train a competent and confident student.