Karate - The Weakest Link ?

[CHOKE UK]

Karate for real life self-defence????.

Some say that it's not what it was,
it's lost it's effectiveness since being imported?

some say it's the teachers etc

some say that it is all money oriented.

And many other things,
and no doubt there is an element of truth in all of these claims.

But I would like to add that the basic principles of KARATE are fundermentally-flawed, as a real life self-defence.

Think about it, has anybody actually seen Karate moves work?

I have seen many black belts of varying degrees, get into the "ring" with a kick/thai boxer and none of them ended up carrying on in vain with the ineffective karate moves.

It is my belief that virtually everything taught by your average karate instructor is actually detrimental to learning self-defence.

Even the basic moves of Karate are simply inferior and impractical.
The over emphasis on "one-blow" corresponded by "one impractical-block", the Fancy kicks, and the insistance on lots of
kicking. ETC,ETC. Then theres the KATA's !

These things and many, many more, are not just mistaught,it's my belief that they were probably wrong in the first place.

And the past glory and effectiveness of this art,
is merely the stuff of stories and exageration.

This can be argued, but what cannot be argued is the impracticality and ineffectiveness of karate, as self-defence.

But what i find disturbing is that many people,children included, find out the hard way, that karate simple doesnt work and is usually a money making process.
This gives the mis-guided students a "false-sence-of-security",
that can lead to a "shock-to-the-system".
As you find yourself , looking for a good dentist, as you say to yourself "how did that happen, perhaps my kee-eye wasnt loud enough" ?
The individual will normally blame himself for being inferior, when infact it's the karate thats inferior, but who'd dare tell that to the instructor !
A system that gives pretty coloured belts to students, that has no relation to how well they can defend themselves, cannot be in the real world.

Sorry all you Karateka's.
But if any one genuinely believes that karate, even satisfies, at even the basic PUNCHING AND KICKING level,
then go down to the local thai/kickboxing gym and get in the ring, and.....SEE WHAT HAPPENS ?

It may be an idea to book an appointment at the dentist first !

[ryanhall]

The sad thing is that I agree with you completely.

[Kingston]

that was quite the amazing piece of biased information......GOOD WORK!!

lol but i have to say........,i think you right in about 95% of all the karate places out there.

its gunna be intresting to see how more people respond to this thread.

[CHOKE UK]

Kingston and ryalhall,
I'm glad you agree, as many people live in denial.

As the old saying goes..........
"There are no so bind as..........
those that believe karate really works" !


But it's important that the truth is spoken,
" as good dentists are hard to find " !!!!

[neil]

Karate

If you look at how Karate developed in the first place it bears little or no resemblance to what is taught today. I have studied both traditional Karate and kickboxing and understand your point. If you want to look at it from a self defence point of view, look at it like this

If you get involved in a street fight hope you're a kickboxer
but if you need to restrain someone Aikido or Judo are your best bet. Also if you have to fight in a confined space styles like Kempo are more effective.

[Bruce_Fan]

Those wonderful Katas.....

Hey Choke UK,

You seem to be pretty accurate with what you said. After all, this is why Bruce called it a "Classical Mess" so many years ago.

I just wonder why this is! I mean Karate WAS Developed as a great means of self-defense. How or WHY it became so ineffective is the real question.
What happened?

I think it probably is a good workout for beginners and any training you do does sharpen your tools. (Punching/kicking, etc....) However, if someone doing Karate goes under the impression that he is now a great fighter, then a trip to the local boxing gym becomes necessary.

One of the things that bothers me the most is the slow learning curve on karate and other classical systems. You spend two years doing the basic bullsh*t like punching air and doing huge sweeping blocks with your hand.
Then they give you a belt (Provided you MEMORIZED the proper 45 minute Kata) and make you feel good about yourself. Meanwhile, you are still punching air and doing those Mr. Miyagi Wax on/wax off blocks.

The beginner would be better off if they just put a Heavy Bag in front of him and said "START PUNCHING until your arms drop."

Modern Karate just does not seem to be the most EFFICIENT way of learning fighting.

Bruce_Fan

[robertlee]

Karate as any art without the needed hands on training will suffer. Does not mean the art is of no use. Mearly means that there needs to be a come back in the realality of training. Then you learn to apply what you do.A kickboxer, jujitisu trainer , thia boxer. they all have to train aginst a unwilling person to get better. Karate did this long ago also. It can today. Just depends on the people teaching and doing. People to day are wanting more out of there training. And the m/a schools have to change to meet the need to survive. Some hard core traditional instructors wont except change. They do not remember that prior to karate being the Do it was a jutsu art trained for self defence mainly. Much of the older training was rugged and developed better fighters per say then today. But there is schools that do push more to the needs today out there. Im not defending karate. But just keeping an open mind to that it was a good art before and can become that way agin. Take the ring training out of say thai boxing for 50 years and it will get weak also. i agree that many times to many requirements and that should be changed. But bringing the hands on back would do trhe best to the traing first.

[Great Sage]

Ah... This thread should be called, “the blind leading the blind.”

Karate in certain circles is still a great martial arts... If you don’t believe me, go and find out yourself. The general attitude by many modern mixed martial atists is that all the traditional stuff is nonsense. This pretty much explains why karate has been declined.

Karate was among the first Asian martial art introduced into the United States. However, throughout the decades, the mindset of many American martial artists have changed and the level of karate has decreased. Many people are simply not interested in karate anymore. With so many fighters trying to be like Bruce Lee, it’s no wonder karate has maintained a lower status.

Ironically, Bruce Lee was heavily influenced by karate blocks and particularly kicks. He used to retract his kicks like the karateka of old until he met Joon Rhee.

In conclusion, people will continue to argue against karate or Tae kwon Do or Judo etc... But these people either don’t understand it or weren’t cut out for it. It’s a common assumption that modernism is dominant over antiquity, but it’s not always true. Ali remains the best boxer ever and in case anyone was wondering if he could take the fighters today, just look at George Foreman.

[Guest]

Hey, Great Sage. Is going off at a tangent part of some overall bullshit strategy?

Anyway. Karate has the potential to be deadly. Think about it. They could learn Shuto's to the neck - fingers to the eyes - elbows to the head - knees to the groin and kicks to the knee cap.

Instead they dance about throwing punches to thin air and have a pretend fight with no one in the silly mystical nonsense that is Kata.

I believe tha there are deadly Karate-ka out there. But they are hiding, probably to prevent their own version of the art being diluted in the attampt to make it appeal to the majority.

[ryanhall]

I'm with Bri. Karate has the potential to be very effective if practiced properly with modifications. However, as taught ALMOST everywhere today, it sucks. With its methods, it could never compete against Muay Thai and Boxing in the ring. The reverse punch does not beat the rear cross. Outside the ring, strikes that are glossed over in most karate studios are actually the most useful. Read the shuto strike, eye jab, etc.

But these people either don’t understand it or weren’t cut out for it

"You don't understand TRUE karate!" Nonsense.

It’s a common assumption that modernism is dominant over antiquity, but it’s not always true. Ali remains the best boxer ever and in case anyone was wondering if he could take the fighters today, just look at George Foreman.

What do the considerable skills of one champion in his sport have to do with modern vs tradional? Could Mas Oyama beat karateka today? Of course. Could Lennox Lewis beat Rocky Marciano? I don't know, but it's possible. What does this contribute to your arguement?

As for modern over antiquity, modern is almost always on top. Methods evolve and improve. We are not losing some ancient secret to effectiveness as time progresses. Should we be using flint lock pistols instead of glocks because traditional is better?

[eXcessiveForce]

For the average person i'm not sure that something is not lost between modern and antiquity.

Let me explain.


As our world become more convience and civilized the average person becomes somewhat soft.

I would imagine that most people from even the late 1800's would be conciderably stronger and in better condition that the people of today.


Also the world was a violent place when the martial arts were created. Many people lived in daily fear that they may be attacked and killed, there homes destroyed...etc.
So when they trained they trained for real. They new they may be the only thing between the attacker and their entire existence.

Today for most of us this is not the case. We rely on construction workers to build our homes. Farmers with machines to produce our food, Stores to provide the other necessities. Many of us sit in front of computers and our world is so far removed from the difficulites of the Ancient world that we simply cannot even fathom fearing constantly for the protection of ourselves and our families.

Things adapt with the times. Many people do not want full contact alive training because of the pain and danger that is involved in that training. The prefer to try an artificial system to teach them to defend themselves if they need to. But hope that this never occurs. And it is very possible in this age to live your entire life with out being in even one life or death altercation.

However in some parts of the world the ordeals of life are still very apparent to many. Such as Thailand.

Americans are especially confortable and there for have quite a bit to loose by being injured in training for something that might realistically never occur.

I do not believe I will ever have to defend myself against a pro fighter. It does not mean that I would not try to defend myself if I had to. But my world is not all that dangerous. I can't say I will never run into a great fighter who wishes to hurt me, so I continue to train. But there are limits to what I will do for training.

What is the point of training if you take more damage from that then from some altercation that may never come.

[Davidc316]

Whilst I tend to agree with the original post, I have heard countless stories about people who have succesfully used Karate to defend themselves in real life situations.

I'm sure we all have

-David

[CHOKE UK]

There seems to be a wide variation of theories.

And as for karateka's defending themselves successfully against an attacker ?????

I know of many people who have sucessfully defended themselves from attackets who have had no martial arts training whatsover !

What does this prove?
Also I know many karateka's that have been battered by people with no training at all !

But it it all academic.

The facts remain.

If karate is effective, then why do they not frequently prove it , by going to a kickboxing gym and prove it "in the ring"?

Answer?
Because it is an inefficient art form.

It is run on strict "martial- rules",
this means no one must question, attempt to changeor improve, as it has an old fashioned strict code of conduct.
That actually impedes it's ability to grow.
They will deter the use of excellent ability,skill and technique that are extrememly effective, purely and simply because it's not one of their moves, they dont recognise it.
When they can clearly see it to be effective.

Karate has a duty to teach what it claims, self-defence.
And it should be able to prove it, if it wants any credibility ?

But thats if it's truely about self-defence.
And not about money !

Are belts/grades given out on ability to defend against an opponent ?.

Or are belts bought ?

Enough lessons and you get the next belt ?
What kind of ability is that checking ?

We can speculate as to why it has deteriorated so far,
It surely couldnt have anything to do with..... MONEY....
"THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL"!!!!

Karate, you are "weakest-link" !!!!

Goodbye !

[chris davis 200]

If karate is effective, then why do they not frequently prove it , by going to a kickboxing gym and prove it "in the ring"?

Not sure that this proves anything other than its effectivness against a kickboxer!! how does this relate to self defence?? Do kickboxers pull your hair, stick their fingers in your eyes, hold knives to your throat, attackpt to batter you with a peice of wood etc etc. No. To fight a kickboxer 'in the ring' as you like to put it is to partake in a sporting contest not a self defence situation.

I am not a Karate Ka but to say that martial artists MUST prove themselves against kickboxing and if they dont they are ineffective is just silly!!

Maybe some people are happy as they are and dont feel the need to prove things. If this is the case then so be it, Karate is not just about self defence - nore are martial arts, this is one aspect and for many people it is a by product of their training and not the focus. I myself do like to 'test' myself against other styles, it proves to be valuable in understanding my own fighting abilities. But if others do not want to do this then so be it.

Karate is good for alot of people in alot of ways. There are some Hard core Karate Ka out there, they are not tournement fighters, they are Karate Ka, there is a destinct difference. Im sure that these people are solid!!

Just some thoughts.

Cheers
chris

[CHOKE UK]

CHRIS, I hear what you say, but I am not sure that I see your point.

Karate focuses on striking, kicks, punches etc
unyet you say this is not self-defence ?

so are you saying karate is not even claiming to be self-defence ?

You sound a bit pro-karate !!!!

you say its good for some people,
well so is needle-work !
And I dare say the needle worker would think of a thousand reasons why they dont have to prove how effective they are against a kickboxer!

Wake-up and open your eyes to realality.
Or do you "knit-your-own-blinkers" ???????