I've been doing research on KARATE... lots of reading. only serious heads may enter.

[goatnipples2002]

My opinion

I feel that karate is outdated because with a reverse punch you keep both hands at waist level which opens you up to head shots.


I'm a street fighter. If you want some good advice practice your tiger's tooth & phoenix eye strikes.

[Toudiyama]

Originally posted by Great Sage
Karate like any martial art has it's postives and negatives. Some karate styles are practical while others are not.

Shotokan Karate was among the deadliest of karate styles when it first surfaced. It employed the idea of "one strike, one kill." However, as of late, shotokan hasn't been able to hold its ground against very many martial arts. Today, one strike that doesn't kill can mean you're gonna get killed.

In regards to punching and blocking, karate is not that practical. As a one time Karate practitioner, I noticed that karate strikes and blocks are over-committed. Thus, karate is susceptible to feints and quick jabs, double jabs, fake kicks.

I prefer the principles of boxing when it comes to hand techniques. Less blocking and more moving and punching. Karate punching power, more often than none, comes from the twisting of the waist, not necessarily the hips. In boxing, the hips provide the power, but it's also the drive from your feet. Furthermore, the punch lands before the feet touches the ground when advancing, so that the power is behind the punch, not on the ground.

Japanese Karate and those derived from it most of the time will be as you discribe, okinawan(shuri) karate will not, stances are higher up, blocks commited just the right way.
Only, okinawan karate is the loooong road. not mch free sparring only Kata(forms) and kumite(pre arranged sparring)

I practiced a couple of styles Wado being the main one, Ashihara also being a big influence both make quick sliding blocks and jab like punches, I know Enshin ryu is based on Ashihara so techniques pretty much the same

Shotokan when it wasn't called that yet had stances like wado but the son of the founder changed all that
He came with the deep routed stances and so one, you startout doing these extremely deep rooted stances and while you progress in theart are suppose to stand higher up, doesn't explain why an 8th degree blackbelt like Kase stands even deeper that karateka with upto 5th dergree BB
I think he also came up with the thought that a form has to end at the same spot as it started ( I know of 1 that forces them to smuggle)
Because this is waxs send around the globe first, people think this how all karate is done but hea some people still call TKD karate

Karate has now become a generic term for a lot of kick and punch art( even though it has grabling and takedowns and even some groundwork)

It is by no means complete but nor is any other art but it's a hell of a base to start from
Several of my student went to another school because it was more tournament oriented and within half a year they were winning medals, so the base I laid was solid, even though Kyokushin and Wado differ a lot
As a teacher I wanted to teach my pupils how to move/use their body, if you know that as well as the limitations of a human body, you will be able to fight because you can actually think of techniques yourself or understand techniques from other styles during crosstraining

[Toudiyama]

Re: My opinion

Originally posted by goatnipples2002
I feel that karate is outdated because a reverse punch starts from the hip or waist region. That goes against the economy of motion thing.

You also said you found alot of moves that would be effective in a street fight. If your art is 100% effective in the streets then why dedicate your life to it?

I'm a street fighter. If you want some good advice practice muay thai, but lose the muay thai mentality, it will get you killed. What I mean in sport fighting you aim for the thigh in kicks, in the street aim for the knee. both will fold a mufaka, but the thigh kick is recoverable. If you break their knee their just done dealin.

I never studied karate to be able to defend myself I studied it because I like MA, japanes in particular (my dad being a Judo teacher might have something to do with that)
MMost people in my country, thee Netherlands, aren't studying karate for selfdefence reasons but because we just like it

I'm no streetfighter, that doesn't mean that I haven't been in fights just that they are rare, traditional Martial Arts have given me a certain calmness of mind which only injustice can make me lose and when I do I don't use karate nor do I use Kickboxing or Judo or whatevr art, I use whatever fits the situation (darn that's Jeet Kune Do isn't it?)

as far as kicking the knee, we(Wado) have a sidekick to the knee and Savate(also a teacher in that art) has a kick where tthe foot is turned outwards and then kick the knee front the front slightly up

[goatnipples2002]

My bad dude! Train hard and have FUN!

[eighteenvisions]

TOO TRADITIONAL!

I took Okwinowan( I apologize if that's mispelt) for about 2 years.Shin Ryu Kan Karate. I don't feel that there's a street application. I guess that's like anything take what is benifitful and leave the rest. There is just 2 different mentalitys I will only use what will keep me alive on the street. If your in MMA for sport that's fine just make sure you know the difference. The hip punch is garbage.......If you hit me with hit of course it would hurt your generating the punch from the hip. But that's if you could hit me with it. It's too slow and if you train with it blah blah it may become fast but it will NEVER be as fast as a cross( my infamous knock out punch) for the simple fact of distance covered coming fom the hip roating your fist to the face. instaed of your fist ALREADY being at face level. If you practice any Martal Art I have respect for you but from ny experience Karate isn't cutting it, exception of stiking pressure points. Tigers tooth Pheonix eye One knuckle punch whatever you call it it gets a thumbs up. I am a head hunter though and thy to knock heads off but pressure points a+

[Karate_is_cool]

people shouldn't generalize karate. there are many styles like my style (kyokushin) which are a very good striking martial arts. we don't punch with reverse punches or use deep stances for fighting. there is no point "fighting" in the system. though i cant say that this style is complete, it is very good. dont say that karate is this and that if you dont know anything yourself. sure people may have studied a style of karate and not liked it. but before you judge karate as a whole, do your research. there are many styles that will surprise you. kyokushin implements low kicks (shin), practical punching (jab, cross, hook, and uppercut), elbows, and knees. there is a high emphasis on cardio and conditioning of the body. when we fight in tournaments there is no padding.

my friend does yoshukai which is quite a hardcore style. they do all of this but they DONT EVEN TRAIN WITH PADDING. i have the highest respect for those guys.

also, style isnt the only factor. it can also depend on the fighter.

i do agree with the street fighter though. in a fight, aim your low kicks to the knee. when the adrenaline is pumping you just dont feel it in your thighs until after the fight.

lol ramus... hapkido? u shouldnt waste YOUR time.

whatever style you do, just keep an open mind on what works. because in the end you're training for YOU not your style. i love karate but im planning on taking muay thai at the same time. i will always practise karate but i understand the importance of learning. like bruce lee said, we should all learn to develop our own style.

[CKD]

Karate is a general term there are too many styles to make the judgement. I do not find traditional karate effective but I do find styles like kyoukushin, seidokan, enshin, and all of its offshoots are very effective. Kyoukushin does very well in k-1 and many people use kyoukushin and it offshoots for striking in there mma art.

[Bushido]

I feel that karate is outdated because with a reverse punch you keep both hands at waist level which opens you up to head shots.

NO OFFENSE, in all respect, but, is it limited thinking or limited knowledge that makes you say that?

There are MANY styles of Karate, and not all use the "fist on the waist" techniques. The styles who do are hermetic styles, styles that stop evolving. Seidokaikan Karate (known as «New Fighting Karate») is very close to Muay Thay, but they added more evasive movements (dodge). In their classes, the learn to defend vs grappler. Dont forget, it is the style that launched K1. Byakuren Karate is also VERY effective, and self-defense oriented.

Peace

[spiderchoke]

I would have to agree with the vast majority of the posts. Karate has been too generalized. Today, everything is "Karate". Well, everything except TKD. I do not think there could ever be a supreme martial art, only supreme combatants. The specific situation could also dictate a winner in a confrontation. I have stated this before, and will offer it again:

Who would win between a Samurai and a Kalista?

It would depend on the answers to many questions.
The first of which would be: Are they fighting in a field, or a hallway?

followed by many more questions. In the end the answer would still be an uncertainty. Although one style may have superior advantage due to terrain or other specific variables, the heart or will of the fighters will also play a part.

Is Karate worth training in?

ABSOLUTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For the right person.


"Every day spent training is one day closer to learning something"
........Spiderchoke

[cross]

Just to clear something up for the people who said "karate is outdated because it teaches you to punch with 1 hand on your hip".

In basic training you learn this method which teaches you the full range of motion for techniques, in application you are generally not going to use the whole range of motion. You are only going to use a part of the motion.

For example, The reverse punch, although it is a bit different from a boxers cross it can be applied in a similar way. In basic training you learn to "push" the hand in a straight line towards the target and twist you hips to aid in power generation. This is the idea way for the technique to be performed. But in application you use the same principles and technique except that the hand can start from wherever it is already, be it up by your cheek, or down low.

So basically, everyone learns kihon (basics) in the most ideal way for the techniques to be performed. But when it comes to applying the techniques, the student decides how its done. And hopefully if they understand the technique it will become second nature and work effectively when needed.

[Combat Cherokee]

Karate IS outdated!!!

Now before you guys jump all over me, give me second. Ive studied Karate from an American based karate guy(he learned from a guy in the states as well) it sucked, but Ive also seen some karate that are good for the kicking/punching ranges. What I mean about it being outdated is this. EVERYONES DOING IT!!! There are so many karate school and mcdojos out there now that its hard to find a really good school. Karate is outdated now because its become so poluted, and its founders have been historically raped by alot of modern day instructors. Now dont get me wrong, cause I often bash traditional MA, I still am not convinced that Karate is the best choice for personal protection. Though its great for MAtist, people who simply wanna learn how to survive and live safe need not apply. Karate does take to long to learn, and though some say thats part of disipline, patience dosnt mean jack when your fighting for your life. SD is not something that you should be relaxed and patient about, MA on the other hand is. This is not to say that a SD tactician cant study MA, Im just saying on has more priority then the other. In my experience, arts like Karate only work against similar arts. Ive studied TKD for 5 years(Ive already stated they were 5 years wasted) and ive point sparred, and thought it was pointless(HAHA POINTLESS, GET IT???) If i went to a TKD school now to poitn spar, id get killed againt an experienced point spar guy. Put that same guy in my field, Reality base personal protection, and ive got the dominent area. If that same TKD guy fought another TKD guy in the streets it would be a matter of whos the faster, stronger, smarter guy with the greatest threashold of pain.

In short, Karate has its good points(REAL karate) but it also has alot of bad aspect, especially cause its been so preverted over the years. Much like their are shitty RBSD guys out there, and there are alot of shitty karate guys out there. I have a sad theory that in a few year that BJJ/GJJ will become total bullshit as well, (again I has negative & positive feeling in that art too), simply because there will eb to many guys focused on rank, showing it off, and teaching 1/2 assed BJJ/GJJ. Its a sad reality, that arts that once held so much merit as REAL combat systems are poluted. Soon there will be stuff like cardio ju jitsu at local spas, "loose weight and learn to fight" I hate that shit!!! Though BJJ is good for the body, health and fitness, turning it into a fad like pilates or "Combat Yoga"(no joke theres spas that teach that) is crazy and sad.

Unfortunatly Karate has reached that level, and Im NOT saying that to bash the art(cause it is a beautiful art which inspired my to search for ways of SD) Im saying its cause its a truth which I hate to face, but know I have to.

Its like the Bible, there are so many translations of it, i think over 100 popular verions, and over 300 books that were never put in it, that there has to be something missing. Someone messed it up somewhere, humans arnt perfect, therefore translations over the years will change and flaw, much like people themselves.

-C-
-C-

[Uber_Tap]

First, I don't want you to assume I am a Karate hater, I held a black belt in karate before I started training in bjj and I have a lot of respect for the art. The style I trained in was an Americanized version of Karate in that it adopted Western-Boxing style punches mixed with what you would consider classic Karate kicks. There are problems with all styles of course, but the thing that concerns me the most about a lot of traditional karate styles are the theories on evasion and blocking.

Since point sparring is so prevelant in Karate I don't think they teach bobbing and weaving because absorbing a punch or kick that doesn't make contact is most likely going to be considered a point for the other guy. In point sparring guys throw a shot or 2 and get out because they now even a technique that would do no real damage in a street fight would get the other guy a point if it even looked like it landed so trying to block each technique becomes necessary. Point sparring becomes counter productive in Karate because being good at it requires you to adopt an unrealistic style. If your style of Karate allows you to free spare, I think you would have a much better success in real combat than those from schools who place importance on point sparring. Just mt opinion

[CHOKE UK]

Seems like I have never been away!!!!!!!!!!!!

same old faces!

My 9 month mission of going to Japan to find the roots of "the long lost true ancient art of karate" up in the mountains, taught my a cult with a 100 years old master , is complete!

My findings?
Well now guess who I agree with ???

[cross]

didn't try to block individual techniques, he either covered-up and rolled with the strike or just bobbed to the side, both left him in a postion to counter strike much faster than I would have been able to.

I agree with this partly, but what happens if you are in a fight and the guy pulls a knife on you? are you just going to cover up and absorb the cuts on your arms and then counter?

In this situation you need to take control of the arm, and the best way to do this is by blocking it and then grabbing.

Basically what im saying is blocking does have a purpose, and dont think that the application of karate blocks are those big swinging motions.

[Phorce]

To begin, im impressed by the lack of slating karate present in this thread, even though negative points have been done so theyve been done so well mannered.

I agree that karate provides an excellent base for fighting, especially wado (as i used to train all the time and still train to this day).

I agree that punching air is not the best way to train, but as it has already been said in a different way- the level comes from the fighter, not so much the art.

The low stance in shotokan is to provide power, yet comes at a price of lack of mobility. In my opinion i agree that wado is suitably pitched at the correct height for the majority of stances- it allows movement with power. I dont like the way that shotokan is highly regarded in kata competitions because of its flamboyant style, but hell, thats life.

I personally did read a lot of Bruce Lee (i would recommend 'The Tao Of Jeet Kune Do' to ALL people that even enter this forum- read it now), after i trained a few years of wado, and i now want to flow into a muay-thai style (ive been working on low kicks, and thanks for the advice on breaking the knee) mixed with grappling, and so ive scrapped the idea of pulliing the non-striking hand down, and i dont use the low immobile stances (when fighting we are always discouraged from dropping the hands).

In all just wanted to pitch in and agree with most people.

P