Bujinkan Ninjutsu, Good, Bad ,Innefective?

[chris davis 200]

Well, the Budo Taijutsu taught within the Bujinkan system is very similar to traditional jujutsu.

As a koryu JuJutsu practitioner, as well as an ex bujinkan member (how shameful!) i would strongly disagree with this comment. It is far more akin to Modern Ju Jutsu Methods.

Bujinkan Budo Tai jutsu is basically hugely different based on who is teaching it. The Bujinkan organisation has a very very caotic problem with its member schools and the standard of the practice that is apparant in the bujinkan world.

Masaki hatsumi , although holding 'some' knowledge does not teach the Ryuha as taught to him. This is quite often accepted by the various shidoshi. He basically makes things up based on his knowledge base.

The 9 Ryu ha that he is soke of are not very complete systems as he teaches them. And his standard is fairly low in most of them, he teaches a huge amount of variation from one shihan to the next.

i have personally seen Soke of other banches of family arts claimed to be taught by Hatsumi and they are far far more highly trained. The weaponry work of the bujinkan is, in general very poor standard. Classical ryu ha such as Katori shinto ryu have an obviously more advanced technical level of ability when compared to the Bujinkan.

Regarding the budo tai jutsu.

The h2h combat techniques of the Bujinkan are in general dependant on the background of the teacher. Some teachers incorporate everything they know into the syllabus of their school, some try to stick to whatever Hatsumi says is correct from one year to the next.

Although this integration of various techniques into the system may well prove to improve the system somehow, it also allows for huge variation in the ability and knowledge of the teachers in the system. This is the caotic state oif affairs in the bujinkan.

After 4 years away from the system a friend of mine went back to bujinkan and found that the system had changed even its basic waza over that time. Bujinkan claims to be a authentic traditional ryu ha. It quite simply is not, Traditional Ryu ha make very little variation to their syllabus, there is very little need to change something that works. The principles of traditional Ryu ha are very much applicable to todays society, this is why they do not need to change. The traditional weaponry systems are not directly applicable today so there is not need to alter these, they are used to enhance yourself and improve your body movement, not to fight with a yari!

The Genbukan still holds true to the traditional teachings of the Schools that bujinkan has left behind. genbukan is quite well respected as a traditional teaching system.

This may seem like a total slur on the Bujinkan - that really is not my intention. As a traditional Budo ka and an ex Bujinkan member i feel i have a good basis to express my view.

Cheers
Chris

[HuSanYan]

chris, as you stated, it (& any other style) really comes down to the major variation in teachers & their interpretations.

This is an enormous variable in any style or art.

[chris davis 200]

Fundo-Jutsu (Chain Fighting) : What can you do with it? Is it practical? How is one to carry around a 3 to 12 foot chain?

The carrying of chained weapons was very popular in Japan. The main weapon was the Kasari Gama, The sickle and Chain.

A very effective weapon against swordsman. It was used often by Bushi in duels or to overcome Ronin

.

mean yeah its a movie, but that was exactly what a chain wielder would do to someone with a sword.

Unfortunatley the chain work in kill bill was Chinese Wu shu, a performance style of chain work.

Japanese chain work is far more direct and way way less acrobatic, currently mainly practiced by elderly men, one good school is the Araki-ryu Kempo. I will see if i can find a video clip from somewhere.

The Kuji-in (nine finger cuts)

Kuji-In Or Kuji Kiri - is a buddhist/shinto mudra method of performing various hand formations in order to focus energys, the mind and to summon shinto deities to aid the user somehow. Not unique to Ninjutsu schools, it is practiced in many shinto and buddhist sects.

Samurai didn't do finger pretzels, did Zen meditation, and handed the Yamabushi's asses to them.

LOL - true, true!

Anyways,

cheers
Chris

[chris davis 200]

chris, as you stated, it (& any other style) really comes down to the major variation in teachers & their interpretations.

Hmmm, i understand what you are saying. But that was not really my point.

the Bujinkan do not have a set syllabus that is part of its component schools, variation of specifics is bound to occure in any style.

Variation of entire syllabuses and key principles rairly does, this is the case in bujinkan.

My teacher was demoing once at the same seminar that hatsumi was teaching at. he witnessed him making up kata behind the stage to teach to his higher level students. passing it off as traditional syllabus of the school.

And after seeing and hearing of the changes first hand. It is not the normal process for a soke to take, and not simply variation of understanding. It is basically making things up.

Now many bujinkan members claim that this is what is ment to happen, that they are not bound by the 'tradition' of the bujinkan, but then claim to be practicing budo and traditional methods. strange is it not!

after training in both and viewing some Fairly rediculous videos, which must have been embarrising for hatsumi when the 'real' koryu world saw them, i have come to the conclusion that bujinkan has no real content left from its 9 Ryu ha.

Anyways
Cheers
Chris

[Lazylycanthrope]

Even if they make stuff up, I find it to be rather damn effective!

[Belaqua]

Originally posted by chris davis 200
As a koryu JuJutsu practitioner, as well as an ex bujinkan member (how shameful!) i would strongly disagree with this comment. It is far more akin to Modern Ju Jutsu Methods.

The contemporary Bujinkan organisation is an eclectic synthesis of koryu ryu ha. As such, its teaching methodology is very contemporary and more task-orientated than most traditional koryu jujutsu ryu ha, which have been charitably regarded by some as dancing schools for the elderly.

It's true that the Bujinkan today is unlike most koryu, in the sense that it preserves a living tradition rather than withering on the vine for the sake of preserving tradition for it's own sake.

If modern jujutsu schools have a similar approach even though they are not koryu-derived then perhaps there are similarities.

Bujinkan Budo Tai jutsu is basically hugely different based on who is teaching it. The Bujinkan organisation has a very very caotic problem with its member schools and the standard of the practice that is apparant in the bujinkan world.

Frankly, the Bujinkan is not an organisation which exterts top down power. If several thousand practitioners want to slack off and are 'crap' then it's no skin of our Soke's nose. He's an elderly gentleman and doesn't really care whether Shidoshi X from Alabama would get his ass-kicked by so and so.

My experience of Hatsumi sensei is that as long as enough people get the message he's trying to transmit, he doesn't give a damn about the rest. He'll tell you himself.

That does make us an unusual, chaotic organisation. It's also a great strength of our organisation, but few people can understand why, prefering instead the more traditional strict hierarchical model.

Masaki hatsumi , although holding 'some' knowledge does not teach the Ryuha as taught to him. This is quite often accepted by the various shidoshi. He basically makes things up based on his knowledge base.

I beg to differ. Didn't you ever go to Japan when you were in the Bujinkan formulating your opinions, Chris? (or even a few Tai Kai?)

I've been in the Bujinkan for long enough to have seen Hatsumi sensei systematically teach koryu ryu ha such as Kukushin ryu, Takagi Yoshin ryu and others from shoden level through to okuden level. He may not announce it, he'll just run through them. This can happen in classes in Japan or at Tai Kai devoted to specific themes.

He may demonstrate henka or variations illustrating the underlying principles of the kata, and this is indeed 'making it up' in the sense that these are spontaneous adapted techniques.

The 9 Ryu ha that he is soke of are not very complete systems as he teaches them. And his standard is fairly low in most of them, he teaches a huge amount of variation from one shihan to the next.

Again Chris, the above is factually innacurate. If you are around long enough and train with the right people then all the knowledge is there for the learning.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'variation from one shihan to the next'. If you mean each shihan teaches and trains differently: well, yes. This is because they are all different men with different interests and training methodologies. We do not fit square pegs into round holes in the Bujinkan- teachers are free to teach as they feel most appropriate for them and their students.

i have personally seen Soke of other banches of family arts claimed to be taught by Hatsumi and they are far far more highly trained. The weaponry work of the bujinkan is, in general very poor standard. Classical ryu ha such as Katori shinto ryu have an obviously more advanced technical level of ability when compared to the Bujinkan.

Given the size of the syllabus we train with it is no wonder that a more specialised ryu ha like TKSR produces better swordsmen. So what? The koryu weapon work in the Bujinkan is a means to an end and the overall ethos of the organisation is not to develop weapon skill in a given style, but to develop a mindset which will let you think outside the box. The Bujinkan repsonse to a better-trained swordsman would be to pick up a naginata.

I'm curious as to these other 'highly skilled' koryu teachers you refer to. Who are they and how long did you train with them?

Some teachers incorporate everything they know into the syllabus of their school, some try to stick to whatever Hatsumi says is correct from one year to the next.

Most schools alternate between working from the tenchijin, which is the generally used Bujinkan syllabus and working on whatever theme Hatsumi sensei has set for the year. This is a tad different from the impression Chris seems to want to give when he speaks of 'correct from one year to the next'. The taijutsu of the Bujinkan has not really developed or drastically changed since it began being taught in the west. The appearance of change is only there because frankly the standard of understanding was in the toilet for so long. A good example is Chris, who allegedly was in the Bujinkan but has clearly minsterpeted or misunderstood everything from the basic training methodology to our most elementary goals.

Although this integration of various techniques into the system may well prove to improve the system somehow.

You think? Hmm.... novel idea... incorporating weaponwork into hand to hand work seamlessly.... Hmmm...

Bujinkan claims to be a authentic traditional ryu ha.

No, it doesn't. Even the rawest Bujinkan student knows that we are a synthesis art composed of nine distinct koryu ryu ha. The Bujinkan is not a ryu, it is an umbrella organisation.

Traditional Ryu ha make very little variation to their syllabus, there is very little need to change something that works. The principles of traditional Ryu ha are very much applicable to todays society, this is why they do not need to change. The traditional weaponry systems are not directly applicable today so there is not need to alter these, they are used to enhance yourself and improve your body movement, not to fight with a yari!

Hatsumi sensei as Soke has no altered the Bujinkan ryu ha beyond some basic cosmetics: for example, he re-named the levels of the Gyokko ryu two years back. Just a name change. The techniques we mine have not been altered or changed formally.

The way we adapt them to our modern day living, using shorter weapons, eliminating top-knot grabs and hakama trips seems obvious and necessary.

The Genbukan still holds true to the traditional teachings of the Schools that bujinkan has left behind. genbukan is quite well respected as a traditional teaching system.

Er... The Genbukan's headmaster is a disgruntled former Bujinkan teacher who decided he wanted to be a big fish in his own small pond. He runs it like a boot camp, which he is entitled to. But he's hardly a more authentic proponent of koryu martial arts than the man who gave him the majority of his life's training.

This may seem like a total slur on the Bujinkan - that really is not my intention.

Of course it is, your post was one of the clumsiest assassination attempts on the Bujinkan I've seen in ages.

It seems like its always the drop-outs or former trainees who have an axe to grind.... You various anecdotes are based on what your friends told you, what your teacher allegedly saw etc. etc. All second-hand from someone who I doubt is even remotely qualified to make judgements about the veracity of a given koryu martial art.

[chris davis 200]

Good post Belaqua,

My responce.

teaching methodology is very contemporary and more task-orientated than most traditional koryu jujutsu ryu ha, which have been charitably regarded by some as dancing schools for the elderly.

Maybe this is the view of Bujinkan Members but unfortunatley traditional ryuha such as Daito Ryu Aiki JuJutsu have a very good amount of respect and the masters of said art are very very proficient fighters.

It's true that the Bujinkan today is unlike most koryu, in the sense that it preserves a living tradition rather than withering on the vine for the sake of preserving tradition for it's own sake.

from my experience the principle techniques of Traditional Ryu ha need little variation in order to make them effective. The view that the literal techniques of a system must be applied as seen in kata is laughable.

The principles of combat contained in traditional Ryuha are from an age when life of death hand to hand combat was common. Not a age when the odd altercation MAY occur at some point People have a very distorted view that we live in a more dangerous age now. How wrong they are.

To change them often means that the essence of these superlative combat methods are lost.

Frankly, the Bujinkan is not an organisation which exterts top down power. If several thousand practitioners want to slack off and are 'crap' then it's no skin of our Soke's nose. He's an elderly gentleman and doesn't really care whether Shidoshi X from Alabama would get his ass-kicked by so and so.

Well how can these schools claim to be Bujinkan then?? This is rather strange dont you think - that a Head of a school doesnt really care who is representing him and wether or not they are supplying a good representation of HIS organisation.

As long as they pay their fees huh!

I beg to differ. Didn't you ever go to Japan when you were in the Bujinkan formulating your opinions, Chris? (or even a few Tai Kai?)

I personally attended 4 schools of bujinkan (all of which were extremely different) I have had corespondant with an ex member that trained directley under Hatsumi sensei, he said that the main thing he learnt from him was that he was an excellent businessman.

I've been in the Bujinkan for long enough to have seen Hatsumi sensei systematically teach koryu ryu ha such as Kukushin ryu, Takagi Yoshin ryu and others from shoden level through to okuden level. He may not announce it, he'll just run through them.

This is good to hear and i am obviously in no possition to argue that he does not teach in this way.

My bujinkan experience and knowledge comes from those REPRESENTING THE SOKE as teachers in his organisation, and from videos of the soke performing techniques from Kukishin Ryu etc.

Those representing him as you have already stated do not represent a true reflection of the abilities of Bujinkan. This may well be the case and i would be happy to think that it is.

BUT what most people see is the average branch dojo, very very few will have the ability to train directly under the Soke.

AND when the majority of HIS dojo's are of poor / variable standard then conclutions can be made.

If you are around long enough and train with the right people then all the knowledge is there for the learning.

again few have this ability and have to make do with what they are told is Bujinkan. HERE (at branch level) is where the opinions of the school originate.

Maybe if Mr Hatsumi WERE to exert topdown power, the representation of his skills would be better.

If you mean each shihan teaches and trains differently: well, yes. This is because they are all different men with different interests and training methodologies. We do not fit square pegs into round holes in the Bujinkan- teachers are free to teach as they feel most appropriate for them and their students.

Even if the basics and principles of the Kata are different from one branch to the next?? O .......K If this is fine in your opinion then cool.

Given the size of the syllabus we train with it is no wonder that a more specialised ryu ha like TKSR produces better swordsmen. So what? The koryu weapon work in the Bujinkan is a means to an end and the overall ethos of the organisation is not to develop weapon skill in a given style, but to develop a mindset which will let you think outside the box. The Bujinkan repsonse to a better-trained swordsman would be to pick up a naginata.

Well most traditoinal weaponry styles have many wepons involved in their system , to say that " we have to much to learn it all properly" seems like a bit of a cop out to me. People like Fumon Tanaka Soke have HIgh levels of Skill in many many weaponry systems and unarmed systems as do many of his students.

The taijutsu of the Bujinkan has not really developed or drastically changed since it began being taught in the west. The appearance of change is only there because frankly the standard of understanding was in the toilet for so long.

And why was this?

A good example is Chris, who allegedly was in the Bujinkan but has clearly minsterpeted or misunderstood everything from the basic training methodology to our most elementary goals.

I do not believe that i have misunderstood anything. I now have a better process of comparison due to the high level of training i have understaken since my time in the Bujinkan. Hence my comments.

You think? Hmm.... novel idea... incorporating weaponwork into hand to hand work seamlessly.... Hmmm...

You misunderstand me - I am talking about Bujinkan schools incorporating Brazilian JuJutsu and Muay thai into their sylabuses.

No, it doesn't. Even the rawest Bujinkan student knows that we are a synthesis art composed of nine distinct koryu ryu ha. The Bujinkan is not a ryu, it is an umbrella organisation.

Agreed. My mistake.

The way we adapt them to our modern day living, using shorter weapons, eliminating top-knot grabs and hakama trips seems obvious and necessary.

Hows about grabbing hair (top nots) and hem takes (hakama trips) are generaly applied in the REGION of the hem of the hakama, but applied to the leg, so again things that have been thrown out because they are not deemed relevant, even though they very much are.

The Genbukan's headmaster is a disgruntled former Bujinkan teacher who decided he wanted to be a big fish in his own small pond. He runs it like a boot camp, which he is entitled to. But he's hardly a more authentic proponent of koryu martial arts than the man who gave him the majority of his life's training.

I dont know the history of relationship between the two.

But it has been stated that Tanemura left the Bujinkan because of Hatsumi's degridation and variation away from the Real / traditional teachings. It is also said that Tanemura trained under hatsumi in order to maintain the tradition, but held an equal amont of knowledge. and that due to hatsumi's variation from tradition, Tanemura was able to leave with a clear concience.

This is just what i have heard. I have no real opinion on the matter.

Of course it is, your post was one of the clumsiest assassination attempts on the Bujinkan I've seen in ages.

No it really wasnt,

It was a clumbsy post to be fair but i was just trying to inform on MY EXPERIENCE with Bujinkan and OTHER Ryuha.

These are all personal opinions on the Bujinkan obviously and are not proven fact or documented evidence.

It seems like its always the drop-outs or former trainees who have an axe to grind.... You various anecdotes are based on what your friends told you, what your teacher allegedly saw etc. etc. All second-hand from someone who I doubt is even remotely qualified to make judgements about the veracity of a given koryu martial art.

Why would you doubt that - i could quite easily say the same regarding you.

I know that my background gives me qualification enough to make comment on this thread and i would say that other people on this board are aware that i have good amount of experience.

[HuSanYan]

""my background this, my background that"" blah blah blah.....
"PS" my friends

[chris davis 200]

""my background this, my background that"" blah blah blah.....

indeed!

[Belaqua]

Originally posted by chris davis 200
Maybe this is the view of Bujinkan Members but unfortunatley traditional ryuha such as Daito Ryu Aiki JuJutsu have a very good amount of respect and the masters of said art are very very proficient fighters.

Daito Ryu isn't actually a koryu martial art in many people's opinion. There is no documentation for the art before Sokkaku Takeda. It may be derived from koryu martial arts, but there is some question over this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daito_Ryu

I find it deeply ironic that you take the Bujinkan to task over the issue of faithfulness to tradition when your 'koryu' is of dubious repute itself.

The principles of combat contained in traditional Ryuha are from an age when life of death hand to hand combat was common. Not a age when the odd altercation MAY occur at some point People have a very distorted view that we live in a more dangerous age now. How wrong they are.

To change them often means that the essence of these superlative combat methods are lost.

The essence is only lost if you change the essence. Practicing variations or adaptions of the underlying principles of a given kata is not the same as altering or watering down feudal era techniques.

An example of useful henka would be adapting a defense against a rear top-knot grab into a defense against a rear collar grab. Do you have a top-knot, Chris? If not, you will inevitably have to face the fact you are not living in the sengoku jidai and make some surface adaptions.

Well how can these schools claim to be Bujinkan then?? This is rather strange dont you think - that a Head of a school doesnt really care who is representing him and wether or not they are supplying a good representation of HIS organisation.

He values the people who get the message, and beyond offering the possibility of transmitting the message, the Bujinkan organisaiton itself has no intrinsic value.

I personally attended 4 schools of bujinkan (all of which were extremely different) I have had corespondant with an ex member that trained directley under Hatsumi sensei, he said that the main thing he learnt from him was that he was an excellent businessman.

Pity you didn't go to Japan or Tai Kai and form your own opinion of the man rather than 'corresponding' with people who have.

Every large organisation and great teacher has his detractors and malcontents. It's the human condition.

BUT what most people see is the average branch dojo, very very few will have the ability to train directly under the Soke.

Dojo which don't go to Japan aren't practising Bujinkan martial arts, they're doing a watered-down imitation. It's sad but true.

Well most traditoinal weaponry styles have many wepons involved in their system , to say that " we have to much to learn it all properly" seems like a bit of a cop out to me.

Try it, and see how you get on. It takes decades.

But it has been stated that Tanemura left the Bujinkan because of Hatsumi's degridation and variation away from the Real / traditional teachings. It is also said that Tanemura trained under hatsumi in order to maintain the tradition, but held an equal amont of knowledge. and that due to hatsumi's variation from tradition, Tanemura was able to leave with a clear concience.

I think the root of many of your issues with the Bujinkan lie in the fact that you seem to accept rumour as fact or the opinions of others rather than educating yourself. The above is a good example.

This is just what i have heard. I have no real opinion on the matter.

When you post on the net, you give an opinion. It's up to you to make sure that opinion is a knowlegable one.

[chris davis 200]

find it deeply ironic that you take the Bujinkan to task over the issue of faithfulness to tradition when your 'koryu' is of dubious repute itself.

the term Daito ryu is not term from old Japan.

The arts contained within the Daito Ryu are. Oshikiuchi, ono ha Itto Ryu etc.

Practicing variations or adaptions of the underlying principles of a given kata is not the same as altering or watering down feudal era techniques.

I agree whole heartedely. But it seems that the underlying principles are being changed by branch dojos - this is my point.

An example of useful henka would be adapting a defense against a rear top-knot grab into a defense against a rear collar grab. Do you have a top-knot, Chris? If not, you will inevitably have to face the fact you are not living in the sengoku jidai and make some surface adaptions.

No i dont and i agree with this sort oif variation. It should not matter where you grab the principle of your responce should be the same. But as i have stated above the principles appear to change from Dojo to Dojo.

He values the people who get the message, and beyond offering the possibility of transmitting the message, the Bujinkan organisaiton itself has no intrinsic value.

So basically as i have stated - Bujinkan is not a very effective area of study in itself. the fact that There are a few dojo's with knowledge but most are disregarded makes me wonder the motive for accepting these Unrepresentative dojo's in the first place.

You must have questioned this prostitution of the Organisations name?

I can see why my comments annoy - you have trained under the Soke i assume and have seen the 'real' stuff.

Unfortunatley this is Irrelevant to the thousands that are interested in Bujinkan, go to the branch dojo in their area and see a vastley different art to the one they thought they were getting.

Hence the opinions of the organisation.

Every large organisation and great teacher has his detractors and malcontents. It's the human condition.

Agreed.

Dojo which don't go to Japan aren't practising Bujinkan martial arts, they're doing a watered-down imitation. It's sad but true.

I would say that more Bujinkan Dojo's dont go to japan compared to those that do - hence the opinions i have formed. This watered down version is all i know, and all most will see.

Try it, and see how you get on. It takes decades.

Really??? How did Hatsumi gain the complete knowledge of 9 SCHOOLS of martial arts in only a few of decades then???

complete systems DO take decades. 9 Complete systems must take more. If we look at someone who obtained menkyo kaiden in a system, it may take 10 - 20 years of intence study (with some exeptions). If we say it took half that amount of time allowing for high natural skill level etc. it would still have taken 45 years for Hatsumi to gain complete knowledge of the Nine Ryuha.

Now it may be that these Ryuha are very small in their syllabus so if we say a couple of years to get Menkyo Kaiden in each - then that would be about right. But then your theory of it taking decades is disproved!

I dont know.

I think the root of many of your issues with the Bujinkan lie in the fact that you seem to accept rumour as fact or the opinions of others rather than educating yourself. The above is a good example.

I do not have any issues with the Bujinkan - i wish all its practitioners all the best.

But the questions were posed on the effectiveness of its technical abilities.

So i GAVE MY OPINION on the technical abilities based on the things i have seen, my training experience and the people i have spoken too.

As i say this was my opinion on what i have experienced.

When you post on the net, you give an opinion.

REF: genbukan & bujinkan.

I do not have an opinion - neither head is my teacher and neither will be. I commented on WHAT iI HAD HEARD. as i stated it is not my opinion, but my understanding of the situation.

Kind Regards
Chris

[Belaqua]

Originally posted by chris davis 200
The arts contained within the Daito Ryu are. Oshikiuchi, ono ha Itto Ryu etc.

Daito ryu, then, is effectively as much of a synthesis art based on old koryu martial arts as the Bujinkan is. I believe you even use the dan / kyu system? I suppose one difference is that the Bujinkan has never represented itself as being a koryu art: only based on them. Whereas obviously Daito ryu did at some stage- not any more?

the fact that There are a few dojo's with knowledge but most are disregarded makes me wonder the motive for accepting these Unrepresentative dojo's in the first place.

The Japanese are actually very generous and my experience of the shihan and indeed Hatsumi sensei is that they would rather encourage people to get better and hope they do, rather than tell them they are hopeless or shut them out.

You must have questioned this prostitution of the Organisations name?

I have enough on my plate with my own training.

[quote]
I can see why my comments annoy - you have trained under the Soke i assume and have seen the 'real' stuff.[quote]

It's my own fault for looking on the internet, really.

Unfortunatley this is Irrelevant to the thousands that are interested in Bujinkan, go to the branch dojo in their area and see a vastley different art to the one they thought they were getting.

Hence the opinions of the organisation.

Most people wouldn't know 'the good stuff' even if they did see it. Quality martial arts is almost always wasted upon the masses. Pearls before swine, such is life.

I would say that more Bujinkan Dojo's dont go to japan compared to those that do - hence the opinions i have formed. This watered down version is all i know, and all most will see.

Possibly. But it's a failure of the trainees in question rather than the art they have failed to bother to learn properly.

Really??? How did Hatsumi gain the complete knowledge of 9 SCHOOLS of martial arts in only a few of decades then???

As you may know, receiving a menkyo kaiden does not mean the learning process is over. Hatsumi sensei is 30 years or so ahead of his senior students in terms of ability, and he is still learning. He actually probably has menkyo kaiden in more than 9 schools (as well as dan grades in gendai martial arts) but out of respect for Takamatsu sensei these are the ones he lists.

complete systems DO take decades. 9 Complete systems must take more. If we look at someone who obtained menkyo kaiden in a system, it may take 10 - 20 years of intence study (with some exeptions). If we say it took half that amount of time allowing for high natural skill level etc. it would still have taken 45 years for Hatsumi to gain complete knowledge of the Nine Ryuha.

As I said, he is still teaching and training at least twice a week in his mid 70s. And he's still getting better. He has actually been training for longer than four or five decades at this point.

As regards the nine schools: Not all of the nine schools are sogo (or complete) budo. Kukushin ryu is, but schools such as Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu and Takagi Yoshin ryu are not as large and have more specific curiculums.

[chris davis 200]

Thankyou for your posts thy hav hlpd to chang my opinions somwhat.

Daito ryu, then, is effectively as much of a synthesis art based on old koryu martial arts as the Bujinkan is

Daito ryu is not really a synthsis art lik Bujinkan. Daito Ryu is an art who's history is from th Aizu Han. It is acceptd by three of the biggest Japanese Koryu groups as a Koryu.

Th techniques of Daito Ryu are directly from the Ju Jutsu and Oshikiuchi systems of th Aizu. This is documented. But as a mark of respct for his teachers and his heretige sokaku Takeda decided to change the name to 'great eastern school'. This was not a change in technique or style but a name change out of respect. This has happened with other schools.

Daito Ryu is a Koryu in the current view of most organisations.

I believe you even use the dan / kyu system?

Yes this system is used as a basic guide to the level of training. But Menkyo are still handed out for certian levels.

Kyoju Dairi is still handed out along with all other traditional certificates.

The Japanese are actually very generous and my experience of the shihan and indeed Hatsumi sensei is that they would rather encourage people to get better and hope they do, rather than tell them they are hopeless or shut them out.

My experience of Hatsumi sensei is that as long as enough people get the message he's trying to transmit, he doesn't give a damn about the rest. He'll tell you himself.

You have kind of distinctly contradicted yourself here!!

anyways! Guess we agree to disagree.

cheers
chris

[Belaqua]

Originally posted by chris davis 200

You have kind of distinctly contradicted yourself here!!

No, not really.

If Hatsumi sensei exerted a strict approach to who was allowed to train and teach, then numbers learning at the hombu would be curtailed.

His primary goal is to ensure that at least a few people 'get' what he is teaching. If they continue to train and teach, then he is happy because the ryu ha in the Bujinkan survive.

Since he is ambivalent about the others one way or the other, he can either allow them to do their own thing and encourage them in the hopes that they improve (some people do), or he could cut them out of the loop totally. He appears to do the former.

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As far as Daito ryu's authenticity goes : you appear to overlook the fact that just because an art is derived from koryu arts does not mean the art itself becomes a koryu art. A koryu art is not determined by the techniques it contained, merely the historical period it dates from.

Since Daito ryu as we know it today was founded by Takeda after 1868 it is a gendai art in the eyes of most koryu historians.

Like it or not, Daito ryu is in the same 'questionable as koryu' basket as many arts in the Bujinkan. Ironically, the label fits us given that we are an openly synthesis art art the end of the day, whereas Daito ryu people seem embarassed by their inability to objectively prove the pedigree they claim.

There are Daito ryu sites on the net which propogate versions of its history which are ... er.... 'creative' at best. Some blithely state that Daito ryu is something like 800 years old. Obviously improbable, given that this would make it older than schools like Tenshin Katori shinto ryu and date it to a time when the martial culture of the bushi had even risen.

Chris, since you're a trainee who values 'authentic' budo and the strength of tradition, maybe you should be looking critically at your own organisation rather than other people's ? People in glass houses .... etc.

[chris davis 200]

Of course, there are Daito ryu sites on the net which propogate versions of its history which are ... er.... 'creative' at best. Some blithely state that Daito ryu is something like 800 years old. Obviously improbable, given that this would make it older than schools like Tenshin Katori shinto ryu and date it to a time when the martial culture of the bushi had even risen. There is simply not enough paperwork to convince non-Daito ryu affiliated historians that this is true.

Come on pal ..... you talk about people in glass houses!!!

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Togakure Ryu Ninpo Happo Hiken, 34th Soke Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu Happo Hiken, 28th Soke Koto Ryu Koppojutsu Happo Hiken, 18th Soke Shinden Fudo Ryu Daken Taijutsu Happo Hiken, 26th Soke Kukishin Ryu Taijutsu Happo Hiken, 28th Soke Takagiyoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu Happo Hiken, 17th Soke Kumogakure Ryu Ninpo Happo Hiken, 14th Soke Gyokushin Ryu Ninpo Happo Hiken, 21st Soke Gikan Ryu Koppojutsu Happo Hiken, 15th soke etc etc

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How is it then that YOUR SOKE is the 34th soke!!

Even the most established martial traditions of Japan are only on their 12th / 13th! This would mean that the Martial traditions of Bujinkan are FAR FAR older than the recorded martial traditions of ANY OTHER school in japan.

Even Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu probably THE oldest school in Japan is only on its 20th soke!!!!

I am not stateing that he is NOT 34th Soke, just that you rational of timing in transmition is kinda flawed. You should research slightly more i feel.

Since Daito ryu as we know it today was founded by Takeda after 1868 then it is a gendai art.

Here is a brief summary of Master Sokaku Takeda and Daito Ryu.

Daito Ryu Jujutsu is a family martial tradition of the Takeda clan. The founder was Shinra Saburo no Yoshimitsu from the Seiwa Genji line (a major branch of the Minamoto clan). The name of the system is said to have been taken from the "Daito Mansion" in Shiga where training used to take place. The tradition was handed down in the Kai Takeda family and when Lord Takeda Tosa Kunitsugu was apointed to be Lord of "Aizu Han", it was he who brought it to Aizu. There it had been handed down as the secret techniques of that domain until the end of the feudal period in the 1860's.

Sokaku had been outstanding in martial arts as a youth and was called a genius with the sword. It seems though that after a while he changed and layed aside the sword and became absorbed in the Daito Ryu Jujutsu tradition. In 1898 he received a master's license in the secret techniques of the domain. This is how Takeda Sokaku became a transmitter (in Japanese literally a "middle founder") of the Daito tradition. After that he traveled to various places teaching and spreading Daito Ryu.

The term koryu bujutsu refers to martial arts of mainland Japan that originated sometime up to and including the Tokugawa period (1603-1868).

Daito Ryu as we know it today is as it was practiced prior to the Meiji restoration and was not founded by Sokaku Takeda. The compilation of the techniques into sectioned syllabi has happened since. But the Techniques of the art itself have not changed.

It still has a continuous transmittion of technique and culture from prior to the Meiji.

The Art itself WAS NOT CREATED post the meiji restoration. The recognation of the arts name as Daito Ryu was post Meiji.

Hence the confusion.

Chris, since you're a trainee ...

Please do not try to make out that i am some inexperienced child playing historian. I have been in the Martial arts for many years, maybe many more than you assume. I have trained directly under Japanese Soke and have a fairly good amount of knowledge.

you seem to preach about knowing what you are talking about. Maybe you should heed your own advice.

Arigato