Bujinkan Ninjutsu, Good, Bad ,Innefective?

[Belaqua]

Chris, I acknowledge that some of the schools contained within the Bujinkan do not have verifiable paper trails, mainly because Hatsumi sensei has until present refused to hand over his documents for examination by people he does not know or trust.

Togakure ryu is indeed a school which claims an unlikely number of Sokes and length of existence, but then .... Kashima Shin ryu claims an even older heritage, and that's the school favoured by much-quoted little-understood japanese historian Dr. Karl Friday.

As regards Daito ryu's origins, I tend to think Ellis Amdur was on the right track when he wrote:

DAITO RYU
Let me really go out on a limb and briefly put my views on Daito Ryu in this. And these views are not about "does it work in the octogon, or on the street," etc., - solely about historical provenance. The organization, the focus on elaborations of empty-handed combat, none of this can possibly be of a period of history that some claim - much less 1000 years old. The idea of "inside the palace" defense also doesn't make sense, as that presupposes that enemies, too, will not want to offend their victim by shedding blood. If you are intent on killing the Aizu lord, do you think that you will care if you break the rules on drawing a weapon inside the palace? A ten year kenjutsu ka against a 10 year unarmed aiki man? Armed man wins almost all of the time. Maybe not against Takeda, or Ueshiba in the garden, but this story presupposes a whole palace SWAT squad of empty-handed martial geniuses. It seems to me that were I concerned about assassination, I'd want my folks to be prepared for people who DIDN't obey the rules. (An example of this is Masaki Ryu - the original manrikigusari was wrapped in cotton and sewn black silk, and stuffed in the belt. Someone makes a move with a dagger, for example, and they suddenly get a chunk of iron in their temple. Far better than a joint lock, no matter how skilled - and far more sure of success as well).Daito Ryu's particular concentration (proved in that it had to incorporate/associate with OTHER ryu such as Onoha Itto Ryu assoc. with it for weaponry, meaning it didn't have it's own sogo bujutsu component), indicates that it was, I believe, the truly amazing creation of Takeda, a man who was able to find the line in almost any configuration he got into with another person and "make a technique" out of it. The MOKUROKU got created by the note-takers - his son for example, who organized all he passed on. Again, as I am aware that, for some reason, this subject gets everyone awash with prickly heat, I'm answering a question about recognizing age of method through looking at the techniques. I am not postulating if Daito Fighto is Mighto or Lighto.

My point was that it's a bit rich of a Daito ryu man to take the original tone you did in this thread as regards the importance of tradition and maintaining 'authenticity' when your own art has so many questions dogging it.

Sorry you find the term 'trainee' offensive. I would still apply that term to myself and others I know regardless of how long they have trained or taught. Some of us are students for life.

[chris davis 200]

My point was that it's a bit rich of a Daito ryu man to take the original tone you did in this thread as regards the importance of tradition and maintaining 'authenticity' when you own art's pedigree has more than a few questions surrounding it.

Granted and my apologies.

Although this is not the Only Koryu i study.

Sorry you find the term 'trainee' offensive. I would still apply that term to myself and others I know regardless of how long they have trained or taught. Some of us are students for life.

As would i. The tone of your post was a bit condicending, hence my responce.

I am very much still a student.

kind regards
Chris

[chris davis 200]

REF: the view of Mr Amdur not a Practitioner of Daito ryu as far as i am aware.

The idea of "inside the palace" defense also doesn't make sense, as that presupposes that enemies, too, will not want to offend their victim by shedding blood.

He has misunderstood Many of that Kata as from non armed opponents. this is not at all true.

In fact Most/all of the techniques in the soden are from Armed attackers.

He is an Aikidoka as far as i know. The kata in aikido have ignored the origional meaning of the Daito Ryu kata. The daito Ryu kata are defences from an armed attacker.

Ippon Dori is from an attack with a short sword or tanto.

The attackers are armed the defender is also armed.

Only with a short sword as the long sword was not worn indoors.

Especially in the Palace.

So this negates his comments.

A ten year kenjutsu ka against a 10 year unarmed aiki man? Armed man wins almost all of the time. Maybe not against Takeda, or Ueshiba in the garden, but this story presupposes a whole palace SWAT squad of empty-handed martial geniuses. It seems to me that were I concerned about assassination, I'd want my folks to be prepared for people who DIDN't obey the rules.

This was the case. The Inside palace art was designed to defend against armed attackers inside the palace. only used by high level bushi they were mainly used for defence of lords.

They included techniques to subdue any attacker. Not just someone doing something formal. so again a misunderstanding of the Kata.

Someone makes a move with a dagger, for example, and they suddenly get a chunk of iron in their temple. Far better than a joint lock, no matter how skilled - and far more sure of success as well).

Tessen and Hanbo are also part of the Daito ryu syllabus and tessen techniques were often used inside the palace. BUT the ability to fight an imediate attack before you have chance to draw your weapon is of more/equal importance, hence the unarmed techniques.

As he has stated the attack would not necisarily be a formal one, therefor, caught ofgaurd and under attack the Oshikiuchi exponent would use empty hand methods to overcome his opponent.

with it for weaponry, meaning it didn't have it's own sogo bujutsu component

Ono ha itto ryu was taught by takeda seperately to Daito ryu aiki JuJutsu and still is in most schools. It was not incorporated. Ono ha itto ryu was not part of Oshikiuchi because long swords were not worn in the palace.

Daito Ryu has short weapons in its syllabus, all of which WERE allowed in the palace. Tanto, hanbo,tessen and parasol. So it does have a weaponry element as part of the system.

I'm answering a question about recognizing age of method through looking at the techniques.

Based on misinterpretation of kata based on the art created by Ueshiba morehei for a modern age.

His argument does not hold water. IMO

cheers

[Belaqua]

Ellis Amdur's bio from http://www.koryubooks.com/bio.html for those that are curious.

Ellis Amdur
Ellis Amdur, a crisis intervention specialist in Seattle, began his martial arts training in 1968. He spent 13 years in Japan, and currently holds instructor's licenses in the Araki-ryu Torite Kogusoku and the Toda-ha Buko-ryu naginatajutsu. He is teaches these two martial traditions in Seattle. Amdur extensively cross-trained in judo, hsing i, Ch'en family t'ai chi ch'uan and muay thai. He began aikido training in 1973 with Terry Dobson in New York City, and continued his training in Japan with an number of instructors, most notably Yasunori Kuwamori and Yoshio Kuroiwa. He is the founder of Edgework, which offers trainings and consultation to law enforcement and social service personel for the de-escalation and management of the behavior of emotionally disturbed individuals.

He's one of the more widely read commentators and writers on the koryu martial arts of Japan. Uninformed about Daito ryu, or prone to misunderstanding alleged koryu japanese martial art? Unlikely.

Edit: for those interested, Chris and Ellis are having an interesting debate about Daito ryu's syllabus and history over on E-budo's aikijujutsu forum. http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/show...5&pagenumber=3

[chris davis 200]

Mr Amdur is a very well respected Koryu researcher and practitioner. I hold a large amount of respect for his technical knowledge and ability.

However he is NOT adaito Ryu practitioner. His oppinions are based on the application of Aikido Kata. NOT daito Ryu kata.

His cridentials show that he has had no contact with any lines of Daito Ryu and therefor, i would say that someone with extensive experience in Daito Ryu would have a better understanding of the Kata than him.

cheers

[Turtle]

Chris Davis 200 & Belaqua, thanks for both giving me reprieve from the boredom of work and a chuckle here & there as you textually joust back and forth.

Now I enter the fray making this a multiple attacker situation.

You both have way more historical knowledge than I so I'll leave you to determine the 'when' and 'how' these ryu-ha came into being. What I will do is try to go for an unbiased attack on the Bujinkan.

Unbiased attack? Well, yeah, I have no axe to grind I'm just calling it like I see it.

Let's start with Belaqua's statement about Hatsumi's supervision of the Bujinkan:

Frankly, the Bujinkan is not an organisation which exterts top down power. If several thousand practitioners want to slack off and are 'crap' then it's no skin of our Soke's nose.

This blew me away, truly. If the head of a corporation, say Microsoft, was to turn round and say "I couldn't care less if Microsoft Illinois is shitting in boxes and selling it as XP, no skin of my nose." they would be on the wrong end of a multi-milllion dollar law suit. It's different if they are ignorant of the fact, but to say they know it exists and are quite happy leaving it the way it is?

The fact is, and will always be, a Martial Art is judged by it's local Dojo, the students and instructors within. If the Bujinkan Dojo in my area was peddling techniques that did not resemble what Hatsumi is teaching then I am being cheated out of my money. You are telling me Hatsumi is aware of this? If that was true he certainly isn't the great man every Bujinkan student claims he is.

Dojo which don't go to Japan aren't practising Bujinkan martial arts, they're doing a watered-down imitation. It's sad but true.

Oh that's a great way to justify poor quality instructors & Dojo. "Well if they can't afford the $1,000+ round trip each year it's not Hatsumi's fault." Yeah, uh huh, so what your saying is that all these Dojo should have their Bujinkan licenses revoked? But wait! That means less money going to Bujinkan Inc! Can't have that! Lets leave them be and continue raking in the revenue.

He values the people who get the message, and beyond offering the possibility of transmitting the message, the Bujinkan organisaiton itself has no intrinsic value.

Certainly has a monetary value though eh? Sheep worldwide contributing to the wealth of the Bujinkan Inc. Baa-aa-aa-aah.
I'm just jealous I never thought of it first.


Genbukan & Shoto Tanemura

I think the root of many of your issues with the Bujinkan lie in the fact that you seem to accept rumour as fact or the opinions of others rather than educating yourself.

Er... The Genbukan's headmaster is a disgruntled former Bujinkan teacher who decided he wanted to be a big fish in his own small pond.

The whole Genbukan/Bujinkan Tanemura/Hatsumi issue is one of those topics shrouded in secrecy. Only Hatsumi's Shihan have a clue what went on, them and the individuals themselves. As you don't claim to be one I have to assume you are operating off the same rumour mill that you accuse Chris of using.
What I have gathered, both from my friendship with a Dan grade in the Genbukan and my friendship with others in the Bujinkan is that NOONE REALLY KNOWS. (Except those mentioned above)

What is known is that two very senior Shihan, Shoto Tanemura and Fumio Manaka both left the Bujinkan because they wanted to teach a more structuralised 'traditional' syllabus. Argue the pro's & con's of either approach all you want but they obviously had a reason for leaving. Don't forget that Tanemura was also a student of Takamatsu Sensei, Hatsumi's teacher.

The Takagi Yoshin Ryu was one Ryu that was cited as a reason for the Tanemura/Hatsumi split. Hatsumi claimed he was Soke of the Ryu whilst Tanemura disputed that fact.

Takamatsu Sensei was the 16th generation of Ishitani line and Fujita line. He gave Grandmaster Sato Kinbei Sensei the 17th Generation of Ishitani line as Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Ju-Jutsu, with Amatsu Tatara Scroll and Tora no Maki. Grandmaster Sato Kinbei Sensei gave to Grandmaster Tanemura Shoto Sensei as 18th generation of this line.

Grandmaster Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei gave to Grandmaster Ueno Takashi Sensei next generation of Fujita line as "Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Ju-Jutsu". And Grandmaster Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei gave to Grandmaster Hatsumi Yoshiaki Sensei too next generation of Fujita line as "Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Ju-Taijutsu". Ueno and Hatsumi said their generation was 19th because they counted from So Unryu and Kiinokami Ito before Orimon Takagi.
Hatsumi was a student of Ueno. Sato Kinbei was elder student rather than Ueno under Takamatsu Sensei.

This is directly from Shoto Tanemura himself. (Biased, lol, probably...)

So I don't find it very surprising that Belaqua is so quick to cast doubt over rumours when all he has is rumours himself.


Oh, a quick aside as I scan this great debate:
Belaqua's comment on the Bujinkan lack of strict supervision;

That does make us an unusual, chaotic organisation. It's also a great strength of our organisation, but few people can understand why, prefering instead the more traditional strict hierarchical model.

'But few people can understand why' I love it, reminds me of the part of Matrix Reloaded where the Architect starts of with 'you are human, thus fallible, so you will not understand half of what I say' allowing him to spout some pseudo pyschological nonsense for about 20 minutes. Just great!


*Cracks knuckles*

The Bujinkan Grading Process

I can't believe this hasn't come up yet.
The Bujinkan has 15 Dan grades, hello? Too many cooks perhaps? I've asked multitudes of Bujinkan people this question and funnily enough there are no definite answers (Surprise surprise!) One answer I got from a 10th Dan was that each Dan grade above 10th Dan symbolises mastery of an element. So were talking Chi = 11th, Sui = 12th, Ka = 13th, Fu = 14th, Ku = 15th.

Now the Sanshin No Kata didn't even exist until the mid eighties, I've spoken to one of the Shihan that helped create the thing! But that's beside the point. Okay, so we see that these new grades do have a meaning. How come they didn't exist before hand. I mean Hatsumi is teaching what he was taught by Takamatsu right?

Or could it all be related to a spell when Hatsumi was ill, unable to actually get out of bed for a period of months, the highly graded (Prematurely, I'll get into that) westerners with nowhere to go (Graded as far as they can) all looked to open up their own Ninja schools and so out comes the carrot on the stick. "But wait! Here's 5 more Dan grades you haven't seen or heard of before." And so the Donkeys line up.

But that's just rumour. No truth in that at all. Well except that Hatsumi was ill for a period of months, bed riddens and the Dan grades were added shortly after. But that's all suposition I've put in the middle there.

Premature gradings! This was a new one to me. Apparently Hatsumi will grade a person before they are competent hoping they will grow into it. Whoop WHOOP, I'll have a 15th Dan please! You can call this rumour if you like Belaqua but as it came from my 10th Dan Bujinkan aquaintence you can take it up with him.

Here's an interesting quote that I've taken from the Kutaki No Mura board. A place where all the Bujinkan Shihan and senior Dan grades hang out. This is what Hatsumi said according to Duncan Mitchell of the Bujinkan Dojo Brisbane:

He (Hatsumi) said that the Bujinkan was too big now and it was time to demonstrate who is strong and who isn't - and to weed out the weaklings. He said there were too many weaklings in the Bujinkan at the moment. Now take his meaning of "strong" and "weak" as you will...

But I personally believe Belaqua over Hatsumi. "That does make us an unusual, chaotic organisation. It's also a great strength of our organisation,"


Anyway, I'll add more to this when my sides stop hurting.



Additional: I am a member of neither the Bujinkan nor the Genbukan, I have friend's related to both and I currently train in something completely unrelated to either. My disdain for these things is out of simple observations and conversations. If any offence is taken, please bring it back in the condition you took it.

[chris davis 200]

MWwwwwwwwaaaaaahahahahaha

Excellent post turtle,

I am glad i have provided some entertainment!

One aims to please!

*sits back with popcorn awaiting Belaqua's responce*

[Belaqua]

This blew me away, truly. If the head of a corporation, say Microsoft, was to turn round and say "I couldn't care less if Microsoft Illinois is shitting in boxes and selling it as XP, no skin of my nose." they would be on the wrong end of a multi-milllion dollar law suit. It's different if they are ignorant of the fact, but to say they know it exists and are quite happy leaving it the way it is?

I'm not sure that the analogy works. The Bujinkan, while probably the biggest koryu-derived martial arts organisation in the world in terms of membership, was brought into being and continues to exist only for one reason: to ensure the continuation of the Budo Takamatsu sensei passed to his student.

Hatsumi sensei wants definitley wants some people to get it- those who are capable of it. I do not believe he cares if most people don't. Quality over quantity.

The fact is, and will always be, a Martial Art is judged by it's local Dojo, the students and instructors within. If the Bujinkan Dojo in my area was peddling techniques that did not resemble what Hatsumi is teaching then I am being cheated out of my money.

More fool the people who train in such dojos.

You are telling me Hatsumi is aware of this? If that was true he certainly isn't the great man every Bujinkan student claims he is.

I don't think it's a reflection on him at all. He has better things to do than quality control and making sure that Sensei Bob from Arkansas is teaching his dojo authentic budo. He'd much rather let Sensei Bob worry about it and allow people to reach their own conclusions about what is being taught.

Oh that's a great way to justify poor quality instructors & Dojo. "Well if they can't afford the $1,000+ round trip each year it's not Hatsumi's fault." Yeah, uh huh, so what your saying is that all these Dojo should have their Bujinkan licenses revoked? But wait! That means less money going to Bujinkan Inc! Can't have that! Lets leave them be and continue raking in the revenue.

Frankly if you are not training in Japan with Soke you are not really training in his budo. Harsh but true. The man will tell you himself.

Should dojos which do not have their licenses revoked? No, I don't think so. They may actually be teaching better-than-average martial arts. And maybe every few years they can break the piggy bank for a two week trip? There's always hope.

The whole Genbukan/Bujinkan Tanemura/Hatsumi issue is one of those topics shrouded in secrecy. Only Hatsumi's Shihan have a clue what went on, them and the individuals themselves. As you don't claim to be one I have to assume you are operating off the same rumour mill that you accuse Chris of using.

Frankly it's less the case that details of what went on are known to nobody, and more the case that they are not spread around. I have heard versions of events from shihan first-hand, and I would not post on-line.

Don't forget that Tanemura was also a student of Takamatsu Sensei, Hatsumi's teacher.

He trained with him for one day.

This is directly from Shoto Tanemura himself. (Biased, lol, probably...)

You said it, not me.

'But few people can understand why' I love it, reminds me of the part of Matrix Reloaded where the Architect starts of with 'you are human, thus fallible, so you will not understand half of what I say' allowing him to spout some pseudo pyschological nonsense for about 20 minutes. Just great!

Like the architects monologue, what I said is fairly coherent but unforunately takes a bit of thinking about to understand. Keep at it.

I can't believe this hasn't come up yet.
The Bujinkan has 15 Dan grades, hello? Too many cooks perhaps? I've asked multitudes of Bujinkan people this question and funnily enough there are no definite answers (Surprise surprise!) One answer I got from a 10th Dan was that each Dan grade above 10th Dan symbolises mastery of an element. So were talking Chi = 11th, Sui = 12th, Ka = 13th, Fu = 14th, Ku = 15th.

We're a koryu derived martial art. The fact that we even use a kyu/dan system is unusual. The Bujinkan organisation is different from other martial arts. If Hatsumi sensei wants to have ten dan grades and then five honourary grades above that, and STILL issue menkyo kaiden to shihan in addition, then why not? There's a running joke that we should have 15 kyu grades as well. There are enough muppets out there who seem to think grades matter in a literal sense.

Now the Sanshin No Kata didn't even exist until the mid eighties, I've spoken to one of the Shihan that helped create the thing! But that's beside the point. Okay, so we see that these new grades do have a meaning. How come they didn't exist before hand. I mean Hatsumi is teaching what he was taught by Takamatsu right?

Simple ignorance. The sanshin no kata is in the Gyokko ryu densho. What you may be confusing this issue with is the fact that association of gogyo theory with it is largely the product of western input.

Premature gradings! This was a new one to me. Apparently Hatsumi will grade a person before they are competent hoping they will grow into it. Whoop WHOOP, I'll have a 15th Dan please! You can call this rumour if you like Belaqua but as it came from my 10th Dan Bujinkan aquaintence you can take it up with him.

Again, simple ignorance of what underpins the Bujinkan and the way rank is used. Go and talk to licensed Bujinkan shidoshi and he might explain it to you.

Additional: I am a member of neither the Bujinkan nor the Genbukan, I have friend's related to both and I currently train in something completely unrelated to either. My disdain for these things is out of simple observations and conversations. If any offence is taken, please bring it back in the condition you took it.

Funny, I think you were a member of the Bujinkan Brian dojo? I am unsuprised that your experiences as one of Brian's merry men has soured you on the art that he originally trained in. I presume the penny finally dropped and you left?

But anyway...

No axe to grind? Methinks not.

[Turtle]

Funny, I think you were a member of the Bujinkan Brian dojo?

(Weird grammer, giving me a migraine)

Busted! I was. I haven't trained in over 8 months seriously and I was only really just in the door.

It seems you have me at a disadvantage sir, for I use this forum name everywhere I go yet you feel the need to change yours.

I am unsuprised that your experiences as one of Brian's merry men has soured you on the art that he originally trained in.

1. I'm not and have never been one of Brian's 'Merry Men'. You could say my name and he would draw blank. I trained in his organisation yes.

2. He has not soured me on the art he originally trained in. I am actually a fan of much of the Bujinkan teachings, yet I can still see flaws. I am not blinded by loyalty nor hatred.

3. My best friend currently trains in the Bujinkan and I have more respect for her than any other Martial Artist I know, I do not ask her to leave Bujinkan teachings as I can see the merit in much of what she's learning and experiencing. She attends Tai Kai's but is yet to make that expensive trip to Japan.

I presume the penny finally dropped and you left?

Nope, nothing dropped, I just decided that while the BBD or the Bujinkan is for some people, I am looking for something far more likely to teach me the essential core of techniques nessecary to survive confrontations. It's associated with Geoff Thompson and his Submission Fighting UK organisation.

No axe to grind? Methinks not.

I genuinely have no axe to grind mate, I just love a good debate especially when I believe my arguements have merit. As I said, I have a lot of respect for Hatsumi's teachings, I am only asking questions which multitudes of loyal Bujinkan members dodge and avoid like politicians.

And like a politician I suspect the chance of getting a member of the Bujinkan to admit fault within the system to be somewhat similar to my chances of scoring with Tyra Banks.

The Bujinkan... yadda yadda yadda...was brought into being and continues to exist only for one reason: to ensure the continuation of the Budo Takamatsu sensei passed to his student.

Yet you concede that there are many Bujinkan Dojo that fail to do so, yes?

Quality over quantity.

Which is why the Bujinkan is so large and has no 'quality control', yes?

More fool the people who train in such dojos.

The fact that they line the coffers of the Bujinkan doesn't hurt though eh? So you're again conceding that the Bujinkan happily allows people to be duped out of their money while instructors peddle less than adequate technique under the Bujinkan name. Hmm

Frankly if you are not training in Japan with Soke you are not really training in his budo. Harsh but true. The man will tell you himself.

In which case he should not have allowed Bujinkan Dojo to spread internationally.

Should dojos which do not have their licenses revoked? No, I don't think so. They may actually be teaching better-than-average martial arts.

Doesn't mean they need to use the Bujinkan name does it?

Genbukan & Tanemura

I have heard versions of events from shihan first-hand, and I would not post on-line.

And instead post rumours and cast aspersions. I see you are truly a man of honour.

He trained with him for one day.

I suspect that's rumour but supposing it even as true, he did train under Takamatsu's primary students Fumio Akimoto & Masaji Kimura, he learned from Kinbei Sato & Takashi Ueno so he did receive Takamatsu's teachings even if indirectly.

The Bujinkan organisation is different from other martial arts.

No sh-it Sherlock! Most other Martial Arts at least attempt to keep their Dojo in line.

If Hatsumi sensei wants to have ten dan grades and then five honourary grades above that, and STILL issue menkyo kaiden to shihan in addition, then why not? There's a running joke that we should have 15 kyu grades as well.

The running joke IS the state of Bujinkan gradings.

There are enough muppets out there who seem to think grades matter in a literal sense.

True, but I don't see the Bujinkan dropping them do you? After all if you can charge per Dan grade then add 5 more, why that's more money!

Again, I'm just jealous I can't think of money making schemes this clever.

Simple ignorance... ...Again, simple ignorance...

Never claimed I wasn't ignorant.

Go and talk to licensed Bujinkan shidoshi and he might explain it to you.

I have and he couldn't, it was all open ended rhetoric.

[Belaqua]

(Weird grammer, giving me a migraine)

Busted! I was. I haven't trained in over 8 months seriously and I was only really just in the door.

Well, I can't say this is the first time I've come across BBD or ex-BBD people who have obvious agendas.

For those who do not know, the Bujinkan Brian Dojo is an organisation which severed ties with the rest of the Bujinkan and ceased to train in Japan many years ago. They've regressed rather than progressed as a result. I've always thought they are in quite an odd position, as they really ride on the coat-tails of the Bujinkan by still eroneously using the name of our organisation (which is copywrighted) and (rather laughably) claiming to teach the nine ryu ha as we do, and yet also the BBD teacher's cadre tend to cast aspersions on authentic Bujinkan dojo because of course McCarthy needs to invent reasons for his group to exist.

With that said, if you've left the BBD then there's hope for you yet!

He has not soured me on the art he originally trained in. I am actually a fan of much of the Bujinkan teachings, yet I can still see flaws. I am not blinded by loyalty nor hatred.

I'm sorry to tell you, but if the limit of your experience of 'the Bujinkan teachings' is with the BBD then you are not qualified to have an opinion on them one way or the other. The BBD contains some decent martial artists, but they are not doing what Soke teaches, far from it.

Other people's opinions, the internet, books and videos will only take you so far- if you want to understand Bujinkan budo then find a reputable shidoshi.

I am looking for something far more likely to teach me the essential core of techniques nessecary to survive confrontations. It's associated with Geoff Thompson and his Submission Fighting UK organisation.

I like Geoff's material, and have corresponded with him. Ironically his original anti-knife syllabus came from Bujinkan instructors (actually from people who were students of Brian McCarthy when he was still with us). If you find old copies of 'Dead or Alive' you will find them in the acknowledgements. Bit of trivia for you.

I am only asking questions which multitudes of loyal Bujinkan members dodge and avoid like politicians.

Well, I've layed the answers out in my original posts with Chris. But I think it may be a case of you not seeing the forest for the trees.

And instead post rumours and cast aspersions. I see you are truly a man of honour.

The difference between what I post and what you post on this matter is that my opinion is educated by first-hand experiences with shihan who were around when this stuff went down, whereas you are passing on chinese whispers you have gleaned from people who are part of an organisation you have never even been in, and thus indeed rumour-mongering.

I suspect that's rumour but supposing it even as true, he did train under Takamatsu's primary students Fumio Akimoto & Masaji Kimura, he learned from Kinbei Sato & Takashi Ueno so he did receive Takamatsu's teachings even if indirectly.

No, it's a fact that Tanemura sensei only trained with Takamatsu sensei for one day. He will admit this and has altered his statements to the effect that he is Takamatsu's sensei's student in the sense that he follows his teachings (bit more of a nebulous definition of 'student' there....). Training under other students of Takamatsu sensei for short periods of time or begging makimono off his widow doesn't even remotely take him closer to being Takamatsu sensei's direct student either.

[Lazylycanthrope]

New Topic

Wow, That last little joust was..impressive

Now a new topic,
How the hell does one effectivly use Hira no Kamae?
I mean, it look's really innefective, just standing there with your arms extened. What is it's functionality?

Let's try to keep the gloves on in this topic.

[Belaqua]

How the hell does one effectivly use Hira no Kamae?
I mean, it look's really innefective, just standing there with your arms extened. What is it's functionality?

Functionality for what? This depends on what you expect any kamae or body position to do for you.

'Hira no kamae' is just what you said: a way of standing there with your arms slightly splayed out by your sides practically. It's a receptive posture and you are exposing vulnerable points.

Hmm... now what might this be used for?

Is it a good position to agressively attack from? Hmm... no...

Would we use it in a ground-grappling situation... hmm... not, don't think so...

Cripes, cor-blimey, maybe it's just what it looks like : a neutral posture not unlike those you'll find yourself in if you are caught with your pants down in the run-up to a fight. Or indeed, one which you might stand in so as to appear non-threatening and bait an attack.

For more possibilities as regards Bujinkan kamae, it's best to have an instructor who can actually explain how they, as abstract and sometimes exagerrated representations of transitory positions, relate to dynamic combat.

Hope this helps.

[Lazylycanthrope]

Hmm, a neutral posture eh?

Well, I supposed that it is an effective lure to spring easily into either Kosei, Hoko, or possibly doko, but I thought that shizen was the "Neutral stance".
Perhaps if I could understand the correct "Feeling" that goes along with Hira it would make more sense.

[Belaqua]

a neutral posture eh?
Well, I supposed that it is an effective lure to spring easily into either Kosei, Hoko, or possibly doko, but I thought that shizen was the "Neutral stance".

I'd say both are neutral postures in the sense that neither are explicitly threatening or explicitly defensive (the opposite, in fact).

However, whereas shizen no kamae is indeed a 'natural posture' the body language of which suggests no particular state of mind or intention, I would say that hira no kamae is more a submissive/receptive posture in that it makes more obvious an open avenue of attack to an assailent.

Perhaps if I could understand the correct "Feeling" that goes along with Hira it would make more sense.

How do you feel when you stand like that?

If you see hira no kamae as a particular way you stand in your everyday life (or representing it), then that's a functional approach, you might not need to get any deeper than that.

Kamae are useful currency for aiding beginners to make connections between body language, mental attitude and physical movement. They are exaggerated snap-shots of various body shapes you might move through in training, not strategic positions you adopt according to static circumstances (i.e He does this, so I stand like so and repsond with technique X. This is the antithesis of kamae in Bujinkan training).

[academian]

Bujinkan is a joke!!!!!!!!If hatsumi was a white guy from florida he would be given no more regard than ashita kim but because he is japanese everyone believes him (well almost every one)...........