the fists at the waist thing...

[jules]

what's the reason behind it in Karate? Won't you wnat to have your hands up all the time?

[Thai Bri]

Power comes from the hip in Karate, so they figure that the fist should come from the hip too. I actually think that it can be quite useful to strike from the hip, if striking in a pre-emptive manner i.e. hitting him first as he is threatening you. Your hand can come under his line of vision and smack him on the button.

But to stick with it through the non-sensical "basics" and katas? Nah. Thats just rigid and silly.

[Nit]

Yeah, the principle is explaine through physics...

basically for more power in a punch you need to use all your muscles to increase speed, you also use rotational energy (twist your hand / wrist just before impact).

the idea is that you throw a punch and withdraw the other arm, thus giving maximum acceleration possibility for the second / third punch.

however this is just a concept of Karate, and to use pure junzuki in a sparring match is to have your head caved in by a small kitten...

the way in which it is used it to train you into using your hips to rotate and so maximise the power of your strike / defense... so it become natural when you fight to rotate the hips, regardless of if you have withdrawn your arm or not.

at least thats what I think... I'm sure others will correct me if I am wrong (please) .

[jules]

Power comes from the hip in Karate..

Power comes from the hip in boxing and MT also but they don't put their hands near their hips...

[Thai Bri]

I know. Boxers and MT Fighters didn't try to be clever and scientific like Karate tried to (and failed).

Nit - the concept of pulling the other hand back actually decreases your power. Think about it. Force = mass x acceleration. The more bodyweight behind the punch (i.e. mass) the more power potential you have.

But by pulling your other arm (and shoulder) back, you are taking alot of your mass out of the equation.

Shukokai developed the "Double Hip" movement. One of its qualities is that you pretend your lead shoulder, hip and foot are the hinge of a door. Your whole body moves around this axis, instead of an imaginary axis running through the centre of your head (like when you pull the lead arm back).

This is quite powerful in comparison.

[eXcessiveForce]

it has to do with newton's laws of motion. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

So if you do not want to over rotate you can compensate by retraction or the opposite arm and yet still use rotations force of the hips.

[Thai Bri]

Nah. Your stance stops you "over rotating", i.e. falling over.

Tell me where else you see this withdrawing type of action. Tennis? Baseball? Boxing?

[eXcessiveForce]

running

[Thai Bri]

Good answer.

I kind of hinted at a striking action though......... Somehow I thought that was more relevant. I don't know why.

[eXcessiveForce]

some baseball pitchers do a similar action as well.

[Thai Bri]

I guess people can make their own minds up.

They can punch the way Thai Boxers and Western Boxers have proven effective in the ring, time and time again. Or they can emulate the "Masters" that get their black belts punching at thin air and making half assed, inaccurate and unintelligible references to "scienctific theories".

A difficult one, that..........

[eXcessiveForce]

I'm not supporting it. I just told you what the belief is. And you asked me for examples. I think the do it for Javlin throwing, and discus and shot put.


Boxer do a similar motion just a shortened form. Hands retract to the gaurd after a punch is executed and another punch is being thrown.


We use "boxing" styles punches so i'm not trying to sell you on the idea

[Thai Bri]

You plainly don't understand the fact that many Karate-Ka move as if they have a fulcrum going down through the top of their heads. As one shoulder goes forwards, the other goes back. That is not the same as mere hand movement.

Doesn't the fact you are disagreeing with me not even give you a hint that you are wrong?

[eXcessiveForce]

no the fact that I am agreeing with you might though.


I was just explaining the reasoning behind the whole hand on hip/ retraction idea. I am not debating it's effectiveness just stating the reasoning.

[brokenelbow]

I'm thinking the entire hand on hip thing is a great way to teach that power comes from the hip. The problem is I don't see many karate folk using the hip, they twist from the shoulder but the hips remain mostly in place. So much bad technique is being passed on because instructors didn't understand the ideas behind the techniques.