the fists at the waist thing...

[Nit]

Originally posted by Thai Bri

Nit - the concept of pulling the other hand back actually decreases your power. Think about it. Force = mass x acceleration. The more bodyweight behind the punch (i.e. mass) the more power potential you have.
But by pulling your other arm (and shoulder) back, you are taking alot of your mass out of the equation.

I understand and agree that more power comes from rotating on the side not the centre.

I suppose though it is a matter of what is good at the time, as if you can put all your body into it for a single stike then thats good. If you are going to use multiple stikes then I feel that the head pivoting will give you power with speed... admittedly not the most, but at the same time more than the average 'jab'.

I'd say that the decrease in power from pulling back is a payoff for multiple strikes.

those punch machine you get at arcades, when i junzuki it my punch is 'power' is pretty lame (not as bad as a jab tho) but I am ready to deliver another punch of similar power after it, if i swing into it with all my body its great power (if I dont miss)

The Wado Philosophy is treat you hands and feet like they are knives / leathal weapons. You don't need much power in a stike if you stike correctly and in the right place. (prod in the eye / neck, heel in the groin / solar plexus etc).

not that I'm trying to change your mind or anything, just giving out my opinion it may well be wrong.

[Thai Bri]

I have only seen those punching machines in Spain. I always have a go, coz I am a big kid. But I always, and I mean always, get the record. Its great for my ego.

As far as Wado's philosophy is concerned, it would be best to hit as hard as you can AND try to get a vulnerable spot. Come on, we're training for life or death situations here. You can't afford to mess about.

[Nit]

Yeah, your right... in life or death I would go all out too... Heh, don't you hate being right all the time?

[Thai Bri]

It can be hard. But it is my destiny.

[jukado1]

In the book "KARATE" the empty hand by h. nishiaymia who is to shotokan karate what god is to religon, nishiaymia shows to throw a reverse punch, rear foot flat on the ground, knee straight, hand on hip, body straight, On the next page is a picture of nishiaymia braking boards, body leaning forward, rear heel up, back leg bent. point? dont mistake training exercise's for actule fighting princaple's.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Training exercises SHOULD be the same as fighting principles.

[GreyBeard]

The "one arm moves one way while the other arm moves the other way" phenomena is a natural neurological reaction.

Try this experiment, tighten your left bicep. You should feel a small contraction in your right tricep. (You may have an easier time noticing it by tightening your tricep while monitoring the opposite bicep.) This small contraction may very well work as extra power when striking. It's not a great deal, and in a real fight your left arm would probably serve you better in a defensive position, but if you have a free shot, it might just make it a shade more powerful.

[Thai Bri]

I tightened my left bicep. I did NOT feel anything in my right tricep.

Jukado - I think that Karate was flawed by this time, and Nishiaymia was merely demonstrating those flaws without meaning too. They even said you should keep the heel of your supporting leg on the floor when kicking, as this was more "stable".

As an aside, did you cath a couple of the pictures of him kicking yoko and mawashi geri? He could barely kick. It was embarrassing.

Karate "experts" tried to be scientific. They failed.

[Szczepankiewicz]

I tightened my left bicep. I did NOT feel anything in my right tricep.

I didn't either.

[brokenelbow]

Karate "experts" tried to be scientific. They failed.

Of course they failed, trying to be scientific about things like overly wide overly long front stances is just stupid.

Training exercises SHOULD be the same as fighting principles.

Spank has the correct.

I didn't feel the tricep thing either.

[kempo_jujutsu]

hi all, i am new to this forum.

the fist on the hip thingy...commonly called a "chamber" of the fist.
i was taught in taekwondo some of the things that have been stated already on this thread....i disagree with the statement that doing this (pulling back) decreases power. i think the equation mass x acceleration=force applies to the weight of your arm in proportion to how quickly it is moving. not to our body weight. the power generated from this technique (chamber) is roatational power, you twist your hips into the punch yes? in turn your shoulders also rotate yes? by forcefully retracting your non punching arm you are accelerating the other arm, thus adding power to the punch. only my opinion.
later i was taught in okinawan karate jutsu(not karate do) that the "chamber" is not even a chamber and you would never see a real karate expert fight that way!!! it is done in kata, but you should view it not as a chamber of the non punching hand, but see the WHOLE MOVEMENT...watch a karateka perform kata, when he/she punches you see a punch with the right, and a chamber with the left, this is incorrect i was told...it is NOT a chamber, then ask yourself how could i use that "movement" in a real situation? have any of you ever PULLED your opponent into your punch? or pulled some part of their body with one hand while punching with the other like maybe a joint lock? or elbowed someone who is coming up behind you? these are some applications of the "chamber"....
this concept applies not only to chambers, but to "blocks" as well, blocks are not really blocks the way most people think of them, the "movement" that most see as a block has many applications most of which are not blocks, i was taught there is no such thing as a block, if you block you have to touch your opponent anyway so why not make it something that counts. in other words every move in kata has an OFFENSIVE purpose. if you view "blocks" in this way, you are not bound by them and are free to use parrys and dodging to evade....i think many mmartists could learn alot about traditional karate by understanding this. karate is not as ridgid and fixed as most think.
it is also true of stances, they are transitional, not fixed...for example if you get your opponent in an armbar...transition into a front stance (zenkutsu dachi)...this puts your body weight forward, and gives you more leverage which allows you to use less muscle power.
i read on another post about all karate styles were invented for children, this is partially true i think, the idea stems from ankoh itosu (teacher of gichin funakoshi and many others) he wanted everyone to be able to learn karate and wanted to introduce it into the school curriculum, but to make it safe for all to learn he "hid" if you will, the true meaning of the kata's from them, and changed the arts focus from combat (jutsu) to self cultivation (do)
just my two cents.... this situation can somewhat be likened to what jigoro kano did when creating judo, as opposed to jujutsu.
that is some of the difference between okinawan karate, and japanese karate, what was introduced into japan by gichin funakoshi was this "childrens karate" if you will....what were his reasons for doing this? he may have been ordered to....would you teach your fighting secrets to an invading army that burned your crops and homes? would you teach small school children deadly fighting techniques, joint locks, chokes, and pressure points?....i am not disrespecting japanes karate, or even karate do in general, the so called secrets are still in the kata, you just have to know how to look for them. so the way this or that art is taught is just as, if not more important than the style itsself.

[Thai Bri]

I stopped reading when you said "it is the weight of your arm, not bodyweight". That is just nonsense.

[kempo_jujutsu]

throw a rock at a wall.....what determins the force that rock will impact the wall....the weight (mass) of the rock, not the person throwing it....multiplied by how fast that rock is moving. in other words the mass in mass x acceleration=force is the weight of the object that makes impact upon another object. i didnt say body weight was in any way irrelevant...just seperate from that equation. where the persons weight would come in is how it accelerates the rock therefore to me they are seperate pieces of the whole picture.
you dont have to agree, i was simply stating my opinion no need to say its nonsense.

[IPON]

TB - LMAO and agree 100%. The power of the punch comes from(as it is said) putting your wieight into it..this is true of any striking stlye

[Toudiyama[NL]]

the fist is only retracted to the hip/ribs/armpit in basics, in sparring it will be more likely near the elbow of the leading arm
Also when the puch goes foreward. the leadinghand will be retracted to the side of the head ( as seen from the front, slightly to the front of it if seen from the side)

At least that's how top WUKO/WKF competitors did/do it

If they would retract the leadinghand to the hhip, they would lose on Uraken uchi (backfist) counters

In Basics it forces the body to move the right way

BTW ( here I go again) in Wado we have "no tsukomi" punches there the nonpunching hand is reetracted to the chest protecting the solar plexus with the wrist


If you want scientific karate, try to get hold of the books of Shingo Ohgami, in between chapters he explains things in a scientific way but so that someone who has had physics in highschool can understand
They are Wado specific and therefore for me and several others been considered something of the bible of Wadokarate, but I think they can be of value to all stylists